5000A means above 5000, but how much?

[Oddvar Tveito 1389576]

Could not find any info on this, so I'm asking here: When my FMC says altitude 5000A, I understand the letter A stands for Above, meaning you have to stay above 5000ft. Today I just continued climing p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing 5000 but got corrected by ATC. I should have stayed at 5000ft. So what does the "A" mean, and whats the difference between 5000 and 5000A if you have to stay at 5000 anyway.

 

Thanks!

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

That's a good point Oddvar, but it would help us a little more if we knew what airport/region.

 

I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume it was a departure since you said you "continued climbing", but what departure procedure?

 

Finally, the FMC is only in control of the aircraft because you allow it to be. Trouble is, the FMC doesn't get that call from Air Traffic Control or your Chief Pilot/Examiner...you do. If the Departure Procedure did not say 5,000 or above then that is where you made your mistake, letting the FMC take control when it was in error. If the procedure says one thing and the FMC another, the procedure wins by default.

 

Oh, and just to be correct, 5,000A doesn't mean to stay above, it means "or above".

 

Randy

[Bradley Grafelman]

Was it the DEGES3L? If so, couple of things to note: 1) An underline below the 5000 altitude at a waypoint translates to "at or above 5000" (as Randy pointed out), and 2) The initial climb clearance is 5000. Procedures vary, but I'm guessing the proper procedure here would have been to set your altitude preselector at 5000 until cleared higher (e.g. by the departure radar controller). That way, if you don't get higher in time, the FD will switch from following the vertical FMC profile to holding 5000.

 

Unrelated, note that "B767" isn't a valid ICAO aircraft type code. Consider doing others a favorite (e.g. for model matching purposes) and using the correct code instead; you can search for codes here.

[Magnus Meese]

Charts charts charts charts charts.

 

When you read back any procedure clearance, you acknowledge that you intend to follow it according to the published chart. If you deviate from it, you're essentially lying (or alternatively, lost). Read and brief yourself, your mind will be way ahead of your aircraft, and it only takes a minute or two.

 

The US has free charts easily available. Most European countries have free charts available via their respective CAA website. Every vACC and vARTCC will provide you with links or downloads for relevant charts. Then, if you prefer, Naivgraph offers Lido charts right now, and Jeppesen charts in the near future. If nothing is easily found, PM your ATC, he/she knows and will be grateful you're one of the good guys!

 

If you base your flying on the info in your FMC, you're doing it wrong. There's a reason reprogamming it is a two-man job under good CRM (monitoring and verifying inputs). "But my FMC..." and "Buy my autopilot..." is just another way of saying "I might as well be in the back, reading a magazine".

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

to add to the above. what was your cleared altitude in your clearance? if all they gave you was 5000. then you stay at 5000 until cleared higher, ATC can sometimes deviate from the profiled vertical portion of a procedure. this is where having charts comes in handy, the FMC only gives you a piece of the puzzle, the charts going to give you much more information including terrain if for example the requirement to be at or above 5000 is because youve got a 3 - 4000ft mountain in the way

[Johan Grauers]

And to add to both excellent comments above.

 

When you're cleared a SID, it always includes two parts. A horizontal profile and a vertical profile.

 

The second one is forgotten by many, who [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume (wrongly) that they are always cleared to cruise level, TA, "insert random number here".

 

If you accept a clearance and no initial altitude is mentioned, there is one in the charts. I really can not stress this enough, there is always an initial climb. If you don't know what it is, and your charts don't tell you, then ask ATC before departing.

 

Also in some cases the vertical profiles are much more complex. Gatwick is a good example where several SIDs have a stepped climb. This means you level of at say 3000 feet, maintain that until a point, climb to 4000 feet, maintain to a point, climb to 5000', etc. This until you reach the final level on the SID or when ATC clears you higher.

 

In parts of the world you can also now be cleared to "climb via the SID" or similar, this means you have to have a chart to know what the vertical restrictions of your SID are.

 

 

You're far from alone on vatsim in following the FMC and magenta line, however there is so much more to it than that. There is good reason a real pilot will never fly without charts (even at their home base where they know it like the back of their hand).

[Oddvar Tveito 1389576]

This thread was very helpful. Thanks a lot to everyone. Fantastic to have a forum with so many people willing to share their knowledge. I have learned a lot this morning.

A few more specific comments on some of the answers I got:

Randys answer sums up very precise what was the case. I understood the FMC syntax (5000A) correctly, but fail to realize that the ATC is free to overrule FMC/Charts. I can’t remember exactly now, but I probably got a max cleared altitude of 5000ft from tower. My mistake was that I thrusted the FMC would do the job and failed to manually handle the max cleared altitude of 5000ft by setting the preselected altitude.

I didn’t mention the airport/SID when I wrote the original post, since I thought the issue was only about FMC/chart altitude syntax. I was departing LSZH via SID DEGES3L, yes.

About STAR charts: I always download ground area and parking charts. They are easy to find (I use rocketroute.com). In the beginning I also always got the STAR charts. But I find the STAR charts are often difficult to find, so I have started to use sometimes the FMC only as source. I should probably not do that. STAR charts are difficult to find, at least at rocketroute, since chart linknames seldom include the name of the STAR in the FMC. They don’t even always include the letters “STAR”.

And yes, I have now learned that the proper type code for my B767-300 from FlightFactor is B763. Thanks.

 

BTW, it was very windy in Zurich yesterday, and because of that, the LNAV failed to follow the programmed route, which have some quite narrow turns. I never managed to get the LNAV locking again. I got vectors from Langen Radar, but overspeeded and crashed. But that’s another story .

[Jonathan Fong]

This depends on the airport. You should check the charts for the airport for definitive information on the specific procedure and what exactly to do - sometimes the nav data in your FMS can have mistakes in it (e.g. missing or incorrect alt restrictions, wrong routings, etc.) so you should get into the habit of using the charts to cross check your FMS data.

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Oddvar,

 

Despite the fact that this was a departure you keep using the term "STAR Charts". Just want to make sure you understand the three basic types of charts. There are more than three types for many airports, but usually these are the three you'll use on a regular basis. First there are SID (although I think the term is slowly changed to DP). They stand for Standard Instrument Departure and Departure Procedure, respectively. The DEGES3L is a SID or DP, as you correctly pointed out. Then theres Approach Plates (for approaching the runway you intend to land on) and finally STAR, or Standard Terminal Arrival Route.

 

I'm probably telling you things you already know, but just wanted to be clear on that. It helps us help you if we know exactly what procedure you need help with.

 

Now for chart sources. I had never heard of RocketRoute before. I may have to look into that. Charts are available from many different sources, some offering the "real deal" and others offering charts for "simulation use only". In most cases they are very, very similar, and sometimes exactly the same. I'll give you my sources and I'm sure others here will provide even more.

 

My main source for charts is a subscription to Navigraph Chart Database. They are not free however. It is a paid subscription and not possible for everyone to use. It's the same vendor that provides FMC NavData updates for your payware aircraft.

 

An excellent source for free, and usually current charts is aircharts.org from Daniel Hawton, one of our very own Air Traffic Controllers. He has recently completely redesigned the site and I find it is very easy to work with. SIDs are called SIDs, STARs called STARs, etc so the type of chart you are looking for is very easy to find and download.

 

SkyVector is a good source for USA charts and some, a few, Canadian Charts.

 

Many of the VATSIM Regional FIRs or ARTCCs have a database of charts for you to download. Some are outdated, but better than nothing and usually very good for giving you the general idea of the correct route. When I use these charts I pay very, very close attention noting any changes that may be different from the actual chart I am reading, especially and pertinent to your post, altitude limits.

 

Finally, there are the AIPs, or Aeronautical Information Publications. These are usually specific to each country, so for Switzerland I would search "Switzerland AIP". Many are free to use, others require you to have an account, usally free to set up, and some charge for the information (these I always avoid). Reading the AIPs (loosely used interchangeably with AIS, Aviation Information Services) is very daunting at times. Sifting through all the technical pages, descriptions, and information is definitely not for the faint of heart. I typically look for the section on Aerodromes. The aerodrome Diagram is typically, though not always, called Sheet AD 2.1 and the related SIDs, STARs, Approach plates are numbered sequentially thereafter. These are not always called by the common name the STAR or SID or Plate goes under, so finding the right one can be very difficult at times.

 

There you go. That's my process and it has gotten me this far with minimum of "trouble".

 

Hope to share some airspace with you someday, my friend.

 

Randy

[Alex Ying]

Another source of US charts that I use is http://www.airnav.com/airports/

 

Not quite as pretty as SkyVector but I've found it easier to find a particular chart in the list format rather than the thumbnails on SkyVector's airport pages.

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

I'd completely forgotten about Airnav. I use it frequently as well, especially when building/rebuilding an airport to current layout with ADEX.

 

Good call...and reminder

 

Randy

[JACQUES LONCHAMBON 1393657]

It means 5000 OR above

[Andreas Fuchs]

As mentioned before