Pilots Checking in airborne when a controller pops up

[Roger Curtiss]

Pilots...I am motivated to post this as a result of an experience I had controlling today. I logged on to a Center position and in the course of the next few minutes received numerous cals from airborne pilots who were checking in with me. Great for them to take the initiative to do so. However...

-some of them called in saying, Hello CTR, with you

-others used this variation, CTR with you FL370

 

See any problem with these? That's right-none of them offer the slightest hint of their geographical position. When I asked one of the flights to state his location he responded that he was 20 miles from an obscure waypoint. I informed him that I had roughly 150-200 waypoints in my airspace and asked he use something mlike a city or VOR to better define his location.

 

Of course, YOU never make this error but please tell your friends about it to improve the experience for everyone.

 

My point is that when you are calling into a controller ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you have not been handed off by another controller) the most important details to provide are your call sign and your location "Center, AAL612 is 40 miles east of ABC VOR FL320".

 

Doing so will save everyone time and effort in responding and locating your aircraft on the screen.

[Magnus Meese]

Note callsign, open plan, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign squawk, tell it to the guy, see who pops up? Or does that only work on this side of the Atlantic?

[Andreas Fuchs]

It is exactly the opposite on this side of the Atlantic VORs? Nobody is using them anymore.

 

If I get called by an unknown flight, I just enter its callsign and use the "find-function" to get a point-out as to who is calling me. This is realistic, since quite a few radar-systems have a VDF-function (more info under this link) and you'll get the same line pointing towards to the station calling.

[Johnny Coughlan]

Roger I'm not trying to be mean here but you're *PG13*...into the wind posting this thread, as it will be viewed by a very small (infinitesimal) fraction of the pilots that fly on VATSIM.

 

Sorry.

[Robert Cardone 1323915]

Roger I'm not trying to be mean here but you're *PG13*...into the wind posting this thread, as it will be viewed by a very small (infinitesimal) fraction of the pilots that fly on VATSIM.

 

Sorry.

 

It's just common sense for anyone that flies, when contacting ATC, to tell them where you are and who you are. If that has to be explained to a pilot, that pilot shouldn't be in the air.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Robert,

 

when I fly IFR, I don't: callsign and level, maybe the active waypoint on my FMS, that's it. If ATC cannot find me with this information, then there's something wrong. Both for real and in our virtual world as well.

[Johnny Coughlan]

Roger I'm not trying to be mean here but you're *PG13*...into the wind posting this thread, as it will be viewed by a very small (infinitesimal) fraction of the pilots that fly on VATSIM.

 

Sorry.

 

It's just common sense for anyone that flies, when contacting ATC, to tell them where you are and who you are. If that has to be explained to a pilot, that pilot shouldn't be in the air.

 

VATSIM doesn't discriminate against pilots with little to no knowledge, anyone can register, download a pilot client, log on, fly.

 

There is no 'common sense' test at the door, don't expect all who come through to have it.

[Roger Curtiss]

Roger I'm not trying to be mean here but you're *PG13*...into the wind posting this thread, as it will be viewed by a very small (infinitesimal) fraction of the pilots that fly on VATSIM.

 

Sorry.

 

It's just common sense for anyone that flies, when contacting ATC, to tell them where you are and who you are. If that has to be explained to a pilot, that pilot shouldn't be in the air.

 

VATSIM doesn't discriminate against pilots with little to no knowledge, anyone can register, download a pilot client, log on, fly.

 

There is no 'common sense' test at the door, don't expect all who come through to have it.

 

VATSIM exists to entertain and to educate. My posting was intended for the latter function. Yes, I know that many if not most do not read the forum posts, however, in the interest of education I posted it here. I also provide the same (and other) "helpful advice" to those pilots with whom I interact. Most respond appreciatively saying they were not aware and enjoy having their knowledge base widened.

[Steven Perry]

Limiting my remarks to the USA...

 

1. I make a point of thanking pilots who checks on frequency properly. I appreciate it. It makes my work easier. I hope they keep doing it and others take the hint.

 

2. Some simmers give position as "534.2 miles... uhhhh..... east... of... I mean south.... of... waypoint... juliet... oscar.. indigo... I mean india... juliet... november." I have no idea where JOIJN is, whether they're east or south of it, and my sector is only 200 miles square anyway. They were handed off from another controller so I already know who and where they are. And they just ate up 15 seconds of air time during a FNO. So be careful what you wish for.

 

2.a. But still... "ABC123, center, roger. Thank you for the position report. Next time I just need callsign and altitude when you are handed off, please."

 

3. When flying, I give my reports (when needed) relative to major cities or key VORs the controller is likely to know. "50 NW of Atlanta" or "20 E of PMM"

[Robert Shearman Jr]

When I'm flying along at cruising altitude in an unstaffed sector, one thing that I entertain myself with (aside from folding laundry, watching cat videos on YouTube, or whatever else) is scanning my route on SkyVector and scouting for high altitude VOR stations I can use as reporting points along the way, should ATC pop up or should I cross into a staffed area.

Then I'll use the FIX page on my FMC to give me a good read on the direction/distance that I can call in with.

[Wygene Chong 1089621]

Just to add to the European perspective: reporting with reference to common waypoints is often far more effective than a VOR because waypoints usually make up the entire flight plan. Most controllers will be aware of all major waypoints in their airspace and will recognise minor waypoints as well. The other reference point you can use is the country border or part of the country you are nearest to, because there are so many countries clustered together e.g. 'BIRD_CTR, ABC123 is at FL340 direct LARUX, entered from Scotland' or 'BIRD_CTR, ABC123 at FL370, overhead SABAG in Greenland.'

 

Location is useful but of course we can find you on the scope with callsign and altitude only too

[Magnus Meese]

For me on enroute, the FP list is the most powerful tool. Once I hear the callsign, I scan my FP list. [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a squawk and toggle the route, I'll know in seconds where he's at. I also feel this is more realistic, as airliners don't ghost into your sector without you expecting them. Not sure if VRC can offer anything like the FP list, been years since I last touched it.

[Sean Harrison]

I always thought that the US controller knew every waypoint and VOR in their sector. It’s easier to find a waypoint or VOR than an aircraft paint on radar I would have thought.

[Steven Perry]

I always thought that the US controller knew every waypoint and VOR in their sector. It’s easier to find a waypoint or VOR than an aircraft paint on radar I would have thought.

 

Absolutely the opposite... unless I'm missing the sarcasm?

 

I've been controlling the same airspace for 18 years. There are literally thousands of waypoints in my small chunk of the USA. A percentage of them change every 28 days.

 

There are about 50 VORs in my airspace. I know each one of them. About 10 have changed names or been decommissioned in my time.

 

There are 4 major cities in my space. They haven't changed one bit.

 

Most of the above information is not displayed on my radar scope. Every aircraft with a valid squawk is though.

[Brad Littlejohn]

It is exactly the opposite on this side of the Atlantic VORs? Nobody is using them anymore.

 

If I get called by an unknown flight, I just enter its callsign and use the "find-function" to get a point-out as to who is calling me. This is realistic, since quite a few radar-systems have a VDF-function (more info under this link) and you'll get the same line pointing towards to the station calling.

 

The problem here is that as we don't have that, as well as a lot of GA pilots popping up for IFR clearance or flight following, ATC needs a reference from a waypoint or VOR for positive radar identification. I know that that has to exist in Europe, so are you telling us that it is ATC's responsibility to find the aircraft to establish positive radar identification, and not the pilot to give you the information to establish that?

 

Now, keep in mind, if this first contact was from a handoff, positive identification is already applied, as you are receiving that identification from the handoff. But in the case of no ATC available or a pop-up flight wanting flight following or a pop-up IFR clearance, positive radar identification needs to be established, and it is up to the pilot to give his location to provide ATC the means to establish that identification.

 

For reference, we in the US have the 7110.65W, 5-3-2.b to rely on:

 

5−3−2. PRIMARY RADAR IDENTIFICATION

METHODS

Identify a primary or radar beacon target by using one

of the following methods:

 

b. Observing a target whose position with respect

to a fix (displayed on the video map, scribed on the

map overlay, or displayed as a permanent echo) or a

visual reporting point (whose range and azimuth from

the radar antenna has been accurately determined and

made available to the controller) corresponds with a

direct position report received from an aircraft, and

the observed track is consistent with the reported

heading or route of flight. If a TACAN/VORTAC is

located within 6,000 feet of the radar antenna, the

TACAN/VORTAC may be used as a reference fix for

radar identification without being displayed on the

video map or map overlay.

 

Here, we would need a fix, visual reporting point, or a position relative to/from a radar antenna/facility (ex.: VOR) that corresponds to what the pilot has told us.

 

BL.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Brad,

 

radar identification is achieved by [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning a transponder code, or, if one has been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned and set already, by squawking ident. That's it.

 

The most important is that pilots talk SLOWLY and CLEARLY during their initial call so ATC has a chance to completely copy those callsigns and then search for their flightplans and/or for the target on the radar screen. Since Mode-S is now mandatory in many countries, the correct flight-ID (callsign or aircraft registration) should be displayed at all times, no matter what XPDR-code is set. That's also why in certain areas ATC will [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a uniform transponder-code, here in Europe it is "1000", but it all depends which countries you are flying in, to or from.

[Ryan Geckler]

Hi Brad,

 

radar identification is achieved by [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning a transponder code, or, if one has been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned and set already, by squawking ident. That's it.

 

Uh, no. Maybe in Europe. Not the US.

 

He literally posted our official docomeents too - did you think he made it up?

[Simon Kelsey]

The problem here is that as we don't have that, as well as a lot of GA pilots popping up for IFR clearance or flight following, ATC needs a reference from a waypoint or VOR for positive radar identification. I know that that has to exist in Europe, so are you telling us that it is ATC's responsibility to find the aircraft to establish positive radar identification, and not the pilot to give you the information to establish that?

 

In the UK (at least) to my understanding that would only be required if the ATC unit is primary radar only:

 

3. Identification using PSR

3.1 One of the following methods is to be employed when PSR is used to identify aircraft. Direction finding equipment should be used to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist the identification provided it has been approved for such use.

3A. The Turn Method

3A.1 An aircraft may be identified by ascertaining its heading and, following a period of track observation, correlating the observed movement of a particular Position Indication with:

(1) the acknowledged execution of an instruction to alter heading by at least 30°;

(2) one or more changes of heading of at least 30°‚ as instructed by another controller;

(3) one or more changes of heading of at least 30° reported by the pilot.

3A.2 A turn for identification does not constitute the provision of a surveillance service. However, controllers should take into consideration, terrain, other surveillance returns, PSR coverage and the RoA before instructing an aircraft to alter heading.

3A.3 In using the turn method the controller shall:

(1) verify that the movements of not more than one Position Indication correspond with those of the aircraft;

(2) exercise caution particularly when employing this method in areas where changes of aircraft heading are commonly made as a navigational routine.

3B. Departing Aircraft Method

3B.1 By observing and correlating the Position Indication of a departing aircraft to a known airborne time. Identification is to be achieved within one mile of the end of the runway unless otherwise authorised by the CAA.

3B.2 Particular care should be taken to avoid confusion with aircraft overflying the aerodrome, making a missed approach, departing from an adjacent runway or holding overhead the aerodrome.

3C. Position Report Method

3C.1 By correlating a particular Position Indication with a report from the pilot that the aircraft is:

(1) over an exact reporting point which is displayed on the situation display; or

(2) at a particular distance not exceeding 30 miles on a particular radial from a co- located VOR/DME or TACAN (DME). The source facility must be displayed on the situation display; or

(3) over a notified visual reference point or prominent geographical feature, in either case approved for the purpose and displayed on the situation display, provided that the flight is operating with visual reference to the surface and at a height of 3000 ft or less above the surface.

3C.2 The identification must follow a period of track observation sufficient to enable the controller to compare the movement of the Position Indication with the pilot’s reported route. The reported position and level of the aircraft must indicate that it is within known PSR cover.

3C.3 This method must be reinforced by an alternative method if there is any doubt about the identification because of:

(1) the close proximity of other returns; or

(2) inaccurate reporting from aircraft at high level or some distance from navigational facilities.

3C.4 A pilot is to be informed as soon as his aircraft has been identified. When operating inside controlled airspace, the pilot of an aircraft need only be so informed if the identification is achieved by the turn method.

 

We have "the message" which provides all the requisite information and would normally be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed on request, not unprompted. So if you were GA operating OCAS and you call up for a radar service of some description the conversation would go something like:

 

Borton Radar, G-ABCD request traffic service.

G-ABCD, Borton Radar, p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] your message.

G-ABCD is a Cessna 172, local flight from Drayford, three miles north of Weltbourne 2,500 feet on the Wessex 1015, VFR, tracking to Norchester, request traffic service.

G-CD, squawk 4123.

Squawk 4123, G-CD

G-CD, identified, traffic service.

 

However, most of the time ATC will have SSR available (indeed, the primary returns may not even be visible by default) and thus only the mode A code is required:

 

4. SSR – Mode A

4A. Identification

4A.1 When using Mode A to identify aircraft, one of the following methods is to be employed:

(1) Observing the pilot’s compliance with the instruction to select a discrete four digit code;

(2) Recognising a validated four digit code previously [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to an aircraft callsign. When code/callsign conversion procedures are in use and the code/callsign pairing can be confirmed, the callsign displayed in the data block may be used to establish and maintain identity;

(3) Observing an IDENT feature when it has been requested.

 

What is required is that the Mode C readout must be validated, which is why you are required to state your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing and cleared level on departure, for instance (so that the controller can verify that the Mode C on his display is within 400ft of the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing altitude you give).

 

Certainly for IFR flights handed over from one sector to another it would be normal to simply call with callsign and current level (if in level flight) or cleared level (if climbing or descending) ("Maastricht, BAW123, FL370" or "London, BAW123 descending FL120").

[Magnus Meese]

5-3-3. BEACON IDENTIFICATION

METHODS

When using only Mode 3/A radar beacon to identify

a target, use one of the following methods:

a. Request the aircraft to activate the “IDENT”

feature of the transponder and then observe the

identification display.

NOTE-

1. At facilities where the single‐slash “IDENT” modifica‐

tion is installed or other decoder modifications have been

made which increase the number of “blooming” target

displays, it will be necessary to exercise additional care to

preclude the possibility of misidentification.

2. TERMINAL. When automated displays are operated in

the analog mode, the “IDENT” return is displayed as a

double slash and the emergency return as a single bloomer

whenever the beacon control head is in the “fail” position. PHRASEOLOGY-

IDENT.

SQUAWK (code) AND IDENT.

b. Request the aircraft to change to a specific

discrete or nondiscrete code, as appropriate, and then

observe the target or code display change. If a code

change is required in accordance with Section 2,

Beacon Systems, of this chapter, use the codes

specified therein.

c. Request the aircraft to change transponder to

“standby.” After you observe the target disappear for

sufficient scans to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure that loss of target resulted

from placing the transponder in “standby” position,

request the aircraft to return transponder to normal

operation and then observe the reappearance of the

target.

PHRASEOLOGY-

SQUAWK STANDBY,

then

SQUAWK NORMAL.

From this I gather that SSR-id is as valid as PSR-id, so why so much focus on PSR? I too was taught the PSR methods when I was visiting at NY. Nice to know, but mostly not needed, I thought (and still think).

 

I do think reporting your position is vital for pop-up anything, but I don't see the need for planned enroutes to babble that much.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Uh, no. Maybe in Europe. Not the US.

 

He literally posted our official docomeents too - did you think he made it up?

No, why would I think that? I thought it was obvious that I was referring how it is done here, in Europe. Of course, it is also possible to go down the route where you let a pilot make turns etc., but that usually isn't necessary, just [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a transponder code and you are good. I do not care for a traffic's position, since I can easily find the target by using the "find-function". For that reason my only pet-peeve are pilots who mumble their callsign or speak way too fast.

[Magnus Meese]

For that reason my only pet-peeve are pilots who mumble their callsign or speak way too fast.

Still a million times better than the current textmania going on.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Uh, no. Maybe in Europe. Not the US.

 

He literally posted our official docomeents too - did you think he made it up?

No, why would I think that? I thought it was obvious that I was referring how it is done here, in Europe. Of course, it is also possible to go down the route where you let a pilot make turns etc., but that usually isn't necessary, just [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a transponder code and you are good. I do not care for a traffic's position, since I can easily find the target by using the "find-function". For that reason my only pet-peeve are pilots who mumble their callsign or speak way too fast.

 

How would you know that the right aircraft is squawking the right code? If you're trying to identify someone who just called you on your frequency, and you have more than one aircraft that isn't squawking a discrete code, and you tell this person that just called you to squawk a particular code, how do you know that is the right one? You could have another person squawk that code, and be the complete wrong aircraft. You would have to know where that aircraft is to make sure that it is positively identified as the right aircraft.

 

BL.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Brad,

 

if two or more pilots set the same squawk-code, Euroscope produces an advisory saying "DUPE" in the tags of the affected aircraft. That's how we know And after all, as stated before, we are simulating Mode-S transponders that also transmit aircraft-/flight-IDs, so I do care for XPDR-code only in a secondary level.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Hi Brad,

 

if two or more pilots set the same squawk-code, Euroscope produces an advisory saying "DUPE" in the tags of the affected aircraft. That's how we know And after all, as stated before, we are simulating Mode-S transponders that also transmit aircraft-/flight-IDs, so I do care for XPDR-code only in a secondary level.

 

Actually, you feed further into the problem.

 

How do you know which one is the right aircraft? You won't have the aircraft tagged, let alone the proper callsign for it, as has popped up and requested ATC services. Both are going to say DUPE, which is correct. But now you have to go through further means of identifying the correct aircraft to make sure that it is the right one that you are tagging. How will you do that?

 

For example, say you're controlling EDFF_CTR, and you have an aircraft that has come into your airspace from EDBB_CTR at FL380. You also have another aircraft that came into your airspace from LKAA_CTR, also at FL380. Both of the airspaces they are leaving were uncontrolled. Both call you up for ATC services. You give one of them a beacon code. Both aircraft squawk that same beacon code. How do you know which one is the right aircraft you are talking to, that should have the right beacon code?

 

Keep in mind, they have not been identified, and you only have a primary target, and not an identified target on your scope. Would you or would you not need a position report given by that aircraft to positively identify that you are talking to the aircraft identified by the target on your scope?

 

BL.

[Magnus Meese]

Simple, you do it again. We don't run out of codes after the first [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment. Open FP, hit [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign, "Callsign123, squawk 4567 FL380". If both guys are on the same level or someone disagrees with my mode C verification, I might start dragging positions into the mix. Also keep in mind, while this has been going on, we have already noted the route of each aircraft and know roughly along what path they will be flying. If one is flying north to south and one is flying east to west, for example, I'll already have an idea which primary target close to either track is who.

 

Mode A was invented for this, I still don't understand the obsession with positions. Pop-ups, aye. Planned enroute? Makes no sense.

 

And honestly, sorting out two guys by re[Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning codes rather than have them trying to figure out what's close to their magenta line is also a timesaver, many will have no idea how to even figure that out.

 

EDIT: I missed that you specified the same level in my reply above, but the point stands. Understand that our controller tools shows us entry and exit points, toggles FP overlays easily, and have many other smart functions that makes mixing up two people at each end of our airspace pretty far fetched. If it does happen, those same tools will quickly reveal the mistake as well.