Chart requirement questions

[Jan Naslund]

Hi,

 

Recently i made a VFR flight in Germany and i could find a picture of a VFR chart online for the departure airport and i thought that i couls probably find a VFR chart for the arrival airport but i was not able to find a free chart.

 

Looked at Vatsim Germany's website and they had a VFR chart but it was locked so i couldn't see it.

I found a few places online for VFR charts in Germany but it turned out i had to buy the charts on those sites.

I normally use charts on Eurocontrol's website but there were no visual approach charts for this airport there. I had all the IFR and ground/parking charts.

 

Anyway, approaching my destination i contacted the controller and he cleared me to enter the control zone via a specific entry point. Needless to say i was unable to comply as i didn't have the chart so i told him about this.

 

After being told off by the controller that not having charts is a really bad idea he told me that he could not let me enter the control zone due to departing IFR traffic and asked me what i wanted to do.

 

I decided to disconnect and finish my flight at that point.

 

What i want to bring up with this post is not the controllers actions but the requirements on pilots to have charts for the airports they fly to and from if the only way to get them is to pay for them.

 

If the only way of getting a chart is to pay for it, is this required for flying on Vatsim?

If it's not a requirement, what should i as pilot expect in a situation like this? That the controller would eventually let me enter the CTR when the traffic load was permitting this or not at all?

 

Best Regards / Jan

[Robert Shearman Jr]

(EDIT: just looked again at the OP and realized it's from a CID starting with 8? apologies if my sort of general, vague response sounds patronizing to someone who's presumably been on VATSIM way longer than I have! I'll leave the advice I gave as-is, though, to stand for other newer pilots who have a similar experience!)

I'm surprised to hear that VATSIM Germany's website wasn't any help or directed you to something that was "locked". As a pilot you shouldn't need to register to have access to pilot resources, I wouldn't think -- but I could be wrong.

 

Also, VATSIM ATC are supposed to be as accommodating as possible to pilots of all knowledge and skill levels as a general rule -- but, during very busy events or other "peak traffic" periods, there surely are practical limits to their ability to do so. The key words are "... as possible."

 

In the heat of the moment, my best recommendation would've been "no charts on board, request vectors please" and leave it at that. Most of the time if you can fly an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned heading and altitude, the controller should be able to work with you, at least to some extent. (again -- most of the time. in my opinion/experience.)

 

But to be completely honest, your absolute best course of action is to do exactly what you're doing now -- an after-action review, get the community's help finding the resources you would have needed at the time so you'll have them for next time, and give it another shot when you get the opportunity. Don't let one bad experience deter you from figuring it out.

 

Sorry it's not a more concrete answer -- I just felt like posting some positive words of encouragement, LOL.

[Jan Naslund]

Thanks Rob for those kind words.

 

Actually it wasn't that much traffic and I felt that the controller wasn't at all accommodating or helpful.

 

In VatSpy I could see 4 dep's and one that had just landed plus the airport has multiple parallel runways. Didn't see any other arrivals close to the airport. I didn't want to start an argument with him while flying so i just disconnected plus he might have had orther reasons for denying me into the CTR.

 

Not a big problem though. After 10 years of real flying, 5000+ hours and 17 years on Vatsim i have experienced my fair share of strict controllers, however i feel that lately there are more of them around.

 

In any case, i don't want this to be a complaint about this particular controller. That's the reason why i keep the airport name out of this post.

 

I know that the goal is "as real as it gets" but it's hard to acheive this due to the chart issues. Some other countries you can't even get any charts at all without paying for them so it's not too bad.

 

Now i guess i can not make a VFR flight to this airport again or perhaps any airport at all as i might get denied into the CTR again if i can't find VFR charts so it would be good to know what the policy is in cases like this.

 

Best Regards / Jan

[Andreas Fuchs]

 

Hi Jan,

 

I'm sad after reading your report. I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that this is not the way that controllers at VATGER are taught to operate.

 

Firstly: we are providing realworld VFR charts for our airports, courtesy of Jeppesen. One of the conditions was that we make these charts available to registered members of VATSIM Germany only, hence the "lock". If you wish, simply register with us as pilot only and you'll have access once your account has been activated.

 

If not, that's fine as well and you telling the controller was the correct procedure. He should have provided you with alternative means to either find the reporting point or proceed to downwind and hold there, if required.

 

One of our members just produced a database with all "PMPs" of Germany and they can be used with LittleNavMap (freeware).

 

Could you please contact me at andreas DOT fuchs AT vatsim-germany DOT org and share the flight details so I can debrief the ATCO? I will need date, approximate time, location, ATC-station. Thanks!

 

Please keep on flying in Germany.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Should you be interested in this freeware, LittleNavMap, get it here: https://albar965.github.io/littlenavmap.html

 

I am trying to get the additional files, containing the VFR reporting points, to a place where you can download it without logging in.

[Jan Naslund]

Hi Andreas,

 

Yes, I guess I would. I quite like flying in Germany and I fly both airliners but quite a lot of GA as well.

 

I can join VATGER as a pilot. No problem. I live in Stockholm, Sweden and am a member of VATSIM.

 

 

The incident happened a while back now. Approx 2 weeks. I was flying VFR as SEGLH from EDDS to EDDF. After this happened I made the EDDSS - EDDF again but now IFR. Unfortunately I ran out of time and had to disconnect.

 

Best Rgs / Jan

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Jan,

 

well, I was looking for some more specific information (as requested above) that would enable me to address this to the specific controller and not just tell everyone off for it. Actually, I see that on that day you flew several times from EDDS to EDDF... Did you talk to TWR, APP, CTR?