DC ADIZ 'Support'

[Robert Greenberg 892610]

I apologize if this has been covered in a previous message thread...I couldn't find any when searching.

I am a [RL] PP-ASEL based in the Washington DC area (KFDK)...and you may know me as N1381 (Skyhawk).

 

After listening to the presentation at the recent AOPA Meeting here in Frederick by the FAA regarding the DC ADIZ (Washington D. C. Area Air Defense Identification Zone), I couldn't stop wondering how helpful it would be - to real life pilots - if VATSIM supported the DC ADIZ in the simulation. For example, having a controller manage 126.75 as the Washington Low Sector. If this was done well, it might help real life pilots become more accustomed with the procedures....without busting REAL airspace and scrambling the fighters. (Would AOPA and/or the FAA support such a thing?, Would it reduce real incursions?)

 

In the meantime, I try to be as "organized" in managing the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo airspace as possible, and manage the DVFR filing as usual.

 

I realize that this is complicated enough and controllers are hard enough to find....but having a seasoned controller manage VFR into the ADIZ would really be spectacular.

 

FYI:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_6_2550.html

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/031403_check.pdf

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

I would love this!

 

in Spetember I will be going to DC to finish my PPL (well a little north of DC at Mongomery Airpark) and this would be great! (for me anyways)

[Michael Graham 923971]

I just from back from 2W5 to PHN the other day, though, didnt worry to much I was IFR

[Robert Greenberg 892610]

GAI is within the ADIZ and requires clearance (even for VFR) and a discrete squawk code prior to lift off....as is it was IFR. This would be given by the Low Sector controller on 126.75 or 126.1, depending on the exit point.

 

See: http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/notams/adiz.gif

[Travis Faudree 821145]

So what you're telling us is that you want to be on the phone for 15 minutes with Flight Service, only to have them give you the wrong frequency to call Potomac when you're inbound? And lets not forget that when you get to the entry point, Potomac has misplaced your flight strip, made you hold over one of the entry points for 15-20 minutes while they scramble to find it, and THEN tell you to proceed on course but stay clear of the Bravo. From personal experience, 50% of the time, thats what happens. I've been into it many times and not once has it been any fun. You just feel like big brother is out to get you.

 

As a vZDC controller, I'd be more than happy to simulate it for you. I know it has been brought up amongst the staff before, but we turned down the idea due to the fact that many of us are real world pilots, affected daily by the ADIZ, and we don't want to see such pointless bureaucracy implemented into our hobby. I could go on for hours about how rediculous the ADIZ is; how its an over-reactive way for those sitting on Capitol Hill to have a "safe zone" around them. The only people it hurts is GA, and I thank the AOPA for being so relentless in their quest to rid the world of this evil.

 

My hometown is in Virginia, and the state department of aviation sponsored an "Amb[Mod - Happy Thoughts]adors Program" to encourage people to fly to each public use airport in the state to obtain a stamp in a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]port book. The only way to get to DCA, Hyde, Potomac and College Park was to drive. Ask anyone that has been to Piedmont/Hawthorne at DCA about the guy that sits behind the desk for 8 hours a day just to keep watch over the empty lobby and stamp the books on occasion. Its sad that the government did this to us.

 

And now, stepping down from my soap box...Robert, I remember your callsign well. I've worked you numerous times, and its always a pleasure to see the small guys operating out of the GA airports around the DC area. Please, by all means, go ahead and start doing what you described. I agree with you about the usefulness of practicing in a virtual environment. Having this simulation available to those 2 guys that busted the FRZ in the C152 a while back, or the 4000 (yes, FOUR THOUSAND) ADIZ incursions to date, may have saved them an unscheduled landing. As mentioned, I am familiar with the ADIZ procedures and would be more than happy to work in that capacity as a controller. We have not trained our controllers on the procedures, for the reasons I mentioned above. This being said, if you find any one of our controllers lacking in knowledge of the ADIZ, please, drop me a note and I'll make sure a briefing is prepared for them.

 

See you all on my scope

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

Travis, could you send me a breifing? I am not a controller but I would like to know all i need to know as a pilot to fly there.

[Thomas Parker]

I'm with Travis 110%. Maybe more. I fly out of Man[Mod - Happy Thoughts]as (KHEF). The RW ADIZ is a huge pain in the keester. It requires that you file a flight plan from the ground in each case: to enter and to depart. To simply go out to the practice area for a few stalls and steep turns requires two ADIZ flight plans.... You have to specify how / where you will be entering from which limits your ability to simply go out and play.

 

For airports within the FRZ (Flight Restricted Zone), there's a whole slew of special entry / exit procedures for flights that want to get into and out of the DC 3 that involve pilots receiving individual p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]words. Really, it's quite a mess. As Travis said, it has really shut those airports down.

 

 

Ben, if you're interested, I can go onto DUATS and get the actual NOTAMs for you. I won't post them here. They're very long. Let me know.

 

But, quite honestly, I'm very glad our vZDC controllers have decided not to implement it.

 

Tom

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

any info would be great thanks!

[Mike Sweeney]

For airports within the FRZ (Flight Restricted Zone), there's a whole slew of special entry / exit procedures for flights that want to get into and out of the DC 3 that involve pilots receiving individual p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]words. Really, it's quite a mess. As Travis said, it has really shut those airports down.

 

Agreed, ... went through the hoops to get a PIN for the FRZ and flew into CGS legally not so long ago. Definitely not the same fun as pre 9/11 flight to an airport with such historic aviation significance.

http://www.pgparks.com/places/historic/cpairport.html

[Thomas Parker]

Ben,

 

I'm [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that address at the bottom of your signature goes to you. I've just sent you a copy of the NOTAMS.

 

Tom

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

I got them thanks! i am gonna catch some shut eye now, i will look over it when i get up. Expect to be seeing some GA traffic out of GAI very soon!

[Jason Herman 911755]

Travis, could you send me a breifing? I am not a controller but I would like to know all i need to know as a pilot to fly there.

 

You can also (in addition to the NOTAMs) call your local flight service station (1-800-WX-BRIEF) and ask for "security briefing Alpha." Most stations have a 5 or so minute recording containing additional information beyond the NOTAM.

[Travis Faudree 821145]

You can also (in addition to the NOTAMs) call your local flight service station (1-800-WX-BRIEF) and ask for "security briefing Alpha." Most stations have a 5 or so minute recording containing additional information beyond the NOTAM.

 

Yeah, about that...

I almost fell out of my chair laughing the first time I heard that one. Homeland Security recording ATIS broadcast...how cute. Almost as bad as them using their Crayola crayons to color the "threat levels".

[Robert Greenberg 892610]

Travis et. al.:

 

There is absolutely no way I can argue with you. You are right.....in that the reasons for, the implementation and execution of, and the resulting effect on real security of the US by use of the ADIZ is baseless, ineffective, and without merit.

 

However, while I am not interested in causing anyone grief in this hobby (you guys are way too good), I do believe that improving my "experience time" (perhaps not always "happy") will make me a better pilot.

 

You know my typical flight....something like KFDK.EMI.KBWI or KLNS.EMI.KGAI or the like. Certainly not "heavy metal". I have stopped flying into DCA (river visual was fun) because of the FRZ and only rarely go to IAD (for pattern practice when the controller is bored.) At the risk of being put in a "hold" at 3000ft over EMI for 20 minutes the next time I sign on, it might permit me to understand and learn to deal with such "diversions" better when I am in the air. I have put "ADIZ Procedures" or the like in the comment line of the flight plan for the controller to read...just to give them a heads up. So when I call just off of Frederick or over EMI, they know what I'm up to. Perhaps that's all that's necessary.

 

There might even be a sort of watered down ADIZ procedures for VATSIM....ways to manage it "close" to RL because of the computer/volunteer/hobby environment.....we already do this (when was the last time a Potomac approach controller managed tower & ground & clearance delivery operations at KBWI because there was no one in the tower (in real life))? But it works for us.

 

And while this is a hobby...I was fantasizing about the idea that AOPA or FAA might even look on this as a help...looking for some sort of win-win. Perhaps I'm an old naive guy.

 

BTW thanks for all those times you've guided me through the fog (when my computer decides not to draw any terrain) back home to Frederick.

[Thomas Parker]

Robert,

 

Having the same problems with flying into and out of the ADIZ, I completely feel your pain. I know what you're up against. But I'm not sure VATSIM is the way to go with getting practice on this issue. There are certain aspects that VATSIM is not capable of imitating. (Like what do you do when there's no ATC, ATC goes offline, or ATC comes online during your flight? Abort your flight?)

 

I would, instead, highly recommend going to your local FBO and talking with some of their instructors and/or directly with Potomac FSS directly. Once you've studied the NOTAMS and done it once or twice, you get the routine down.

 

[edit: deleted last comment. It was a pretty weak argument]

 

 

My 2 cents.

Tom

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

does anyone have pictures of KGAI that they can give me? I am going to try to modify my KGAI with EZ Scenery..

 

thanks!!!

[Robert Greenberg 892610]

Managing the differences between real life and VATSIM shouldn't be too bad....fly VFR (wringly using 1200 in the ADIZ) if there is no controller, and if/when they come on (they know that they were last to sign, no?) they can simply give you a code and confirm your fliight plan. Its not like there are zillions of planes in the sector.

 

The other simple way to manage it....which although it may be even more real life-like...is to require IFR flight in the ADIZ. Since I am not an IFR pilot (yet) and don't really know the proper procedures (arrivals/departures, etc.) I don't want to "fake it". Later on, when I am better in my knowledge, perhaps that will be an option.

[Ben Zwebner 906832]

Just thought it would be nice...

 

here is a link to screenies of a flight i just made in that area.. i was online.. but the controllers werent

 

http://www.vatil.org/vatil/board/viewtopic.php?t=13475

[Chris Striker 969621]

i agree on the ADIZ filing and so forth. im a student pilot and this would really help out the new students and even vets on here. monitor a descrete code out, then squak 1200 after exiting.... do your flying stuff.... call potomac open the FP and fly back to the airport. i have never had to file 2 plans tho. ive always filed one since at my home APT... Martin State. we only need to squak our code #### until lout ofthe ADIZ. on the way back in the filed one comes into play. this is where on the ground we woudl give a time to enter back into the zone via a intersection. i normally use the BELAY since its close to where i practice at.

 

Anyway, i think its a good idea and should be looked into further and inplimented.

 

Chris

[Robert Henry 859761]

First, let me state that I operate in the real world ADIZ often. Let me provide some facts and try to address some misinformation.

 

First the "DC ADIZ" qualifies as a new kind of airspace designation with no ICAO equivalent. (Do you see any issues already?) It is not DVFR, it is not a Warning area. I'm not making this up: it is a Permanent Temporary Flight Restriction, or permanent TFR designated as the "DC ADIZ." Like other cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es of airspace, it is transparent to IFR operations.

 

The DC ADIZ is mandated by the DOD and USSS, regulated and operationalized by the DOT/FAA, and enforced by the Coast Guard (US DHS), now using the Dauphine (cannon-equipped). Please note that it is not enforced by the FAA. Sanctions for pilots originate within DOD or DHS and the FAA is required to process the "pilot deviation" by law. They are not the ADIZ police, just the regulatory entity chartered to operate the airspace and inform pilots of their operational responsibiities. In fact, if a controller screws up and a pilot deivation occurs, the controller gets written up, too.

 

Given that, for VATSIM purposes, it is next to meaningless. I will discuss the issue of omitting the phraseology regarding VFR aircraft upon termination of radar services for aircraft operating to airports in the ADIZ, but this is a very rare occurence on VATSIM, frankly. Most flights are IFR.

 

That said, if you enter a flight plan on VATSIM and make a request for radar services (flight following), you can simulate the ADIZ very easily. The only difference is that radar services are not provided unless you hear the words "radar contact" - which is unlikely in the real world. There, it's a totally made up phraseology for the lawyers - "beacon code observed, proceed on course." ... followed by "advise/report exiting the ADIZ" or "report the field in sight". Since we are usually anxious to provide radar services to sim aircraft, you will get traffic advisories, if any.

 

If you want to do this, let the controller know you will keep the code til landing, and/or cancel flight following upon exiting the ADIZ, if you'd like.

 

Please know that for the most part we do not have an ADIZ overlay for our scopes. The ADIZ is larger than the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace to the south and east.

 

Finally, please note that we have resource constraints on our training program. We will not be adding DC ADIZ to the curriculum anytime soon. Requests referring to the ADIZ may not be understood by many controllers; please don't expect them to help you learn the ADIZ - they don't know it either. That said, if you want to simulate VFR ADIZ operations, it is basically "flight following."

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

First, [...]

 

Thanks for that post. Very interesting information about the real world. I think that many will concur with and appreciate your center's decision with respect to this zone.

 

"Permanent Temporary Flight Restriciton" --> That is cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic!

[Jeff Turner]

Very interesting Bob, thanks a lot!