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Hello everybody,

 

in U.S. ATC communication, you usually hear climb or descend instructions with "and maintain", like "DAL615, climb and maintain FL310".

In Europe, I've never heard the maintain-phrase, except on instructions to level off at a certain FL.

 

I was wondering for the reason of that phraselogy. Obviously, the pilot would maintain the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned altitude, what else should he or she do? So why say it?

 

Thanks for clarifying!

 

Regards

Ben

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Benjamin,

 

You may not always maintain an altitude or there may be a reason to be specific. Say you get an instruction like "DAL615, cross OVR @ 10,000, maintain 5,000"

In this case you won't maintain 10,000 and the ATC needed to specify what altitude to maintain (5000).

 

On a side note...I don't know why we say climb/descend and maintain XXXXXft. If you're @ FL200 and your told to go to 12,000 ft, obviously you'd descend to get there So maybe ATC should just use "DAL615, maitain 12,000 ft" b/c you know you'll need to descend to get there

 

Anyone else?

Jason Harris

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Plus,

 

then, there's a eurpean Phraseology: "to be levelled at ".

 

Not so sure that it's used elsewhere in the world.

 

And then, there's the difference between:

"descent FL/Altitude xxx to be leveled at YYY"

 

And:

"descent FL/Altitude xxx to be leveled at YYY

when ready"

 

In the first case, the controller would expect you to initiate the descent, just right after he gave the clearance.

 

In the second case, it's at the Pilots disgression when to start the descent.

 

Think we might as well open a thread of "funny ATC clearances all over the world"

 

However, on a more serious note, that information is exactely what I as a well prepared Pilot would expect to have publically available on an ARTCC/Region side!

 

Food for thoughts,

Best regards,

Jörg

 

PS: This friday, I as a "vet" of flying Europe, will participate in the Denver Event. I have no idea what is awaiting me except for the fact, that US ATC like to vector very much, so I'll have my mouse on the heading bug and that the TA in the US is 18.000 feet.

The Denver Guys did a pretty good job on explaining it all on the event web site, and I'm looking forward to the "adventure" of not knowing which ILS frequency I'll have to tune in

But these kind of information should be publically availabe - somehting like "VFR for Dummies" in the USA/UK/Germany/France/Poland/anywhere else.

 

Like others said, after the enormous task the "upper" at Vatsim are facing at the moment, can't we have a project, where I as an interested pilot just can click on something and read: "VFR flying goes this and that way", "We have a metric system - so your IFR FLs are these and that East/Westbound"?

 

Like - I want to fly the south coast of England. I check in and choose England (or Great Britain, to be pc ).

Then I click on VFR and am told the airspace structure, wether or not to contact CTR/APP, the VFR Sqawk for GB etc.

 

Or, I want to fly to Bejing. I just click on China and get all the neccessary information, including what metric flight levels are available for my journy from Ulan Bator to Bejing.

 

I'm aware that those informations are available on the various regions, more likely on the respective vARTCC sites, but frankly, if I need more than three clicks, I tend to loose interest

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Indeed, the UK do not use "climb and maintain". I'm too am not sure why "maintain" is needed since the pilot knows he's not supposed to change level again without instruction. However in situations where level busts are common, and the pilot is on a standard instrument departure which has a stepped climb (e.g. from EGLC) you may hear

 

Pilot: with you p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing 2000ft for 3000ft BPK3T departure

ATC: squawk ident, maintain 3000ft on reaching

 

which is done to make absolutely sure you don't climb into the path of one of the EGLL arrivals crossing above you at 4000ft.

 

Ruth McTighe

VATUK2

Ruth McTighe

Heathrow Director, Essex Radar, Thames Radar, London Information

[Mod - Happy Thoughts]t webmistress CIX VFR Club http://www.cixvfrclub.org.uk/

Webmistress Plan-G http://www.tasoftware.co.uk/

Now not a VATanything

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US controller phraseology is written by some lawyers so it never makes sense, but you can make sense of it.

"descend 5,000" -- A pilot may think that means to descend 5,000ft from his current altitude

"descend and maintain 5,000" -- No question that you are going to 5000ft and not just losing 5000ft from your current altitude, because then you wont be maintaining 5,000 now will you!

 

That would be my understanding of the need for the "and maintain". Naturally Air Traffic Controllers [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume pilots are dumb and could easily get mixed up (or its for safety).

 

P.S. Europe vs US also comes into play with "position and hold" and "line up and hold" when approaching a runway. The US prefer "position and hold" and I believe the Europe method is "line up and hold" its been a while since I have flown over there. They mean the same thing but someone believes that 'line up and hold" could be mistaken when given a hold short instruction for lining up and so forth. But its not THAT big of a difference flying to the US then Europe, sometimes you might need some clarification for some instructions. Getting your ILS clearance is a little different as well. In the US you wont hear "report established on the localizer" you will hear "you are 10 miles from the OM, turn right heading 240, maintain XXXX thousand feet until established on the localizer cleared ILS runway XX approach" You do not need to call established.

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..Getting your ILS clearance is a little different as well. In the US you wont hear "report established on the localizer" you will hear "you are 10 miles from the OM, turn right heading 240, maintain XXXX thousand feet until established on the localizer cleared ILS runway XX approach" You do not need to call established.

 

 

Hey,

 

Ok, so what if you don't establish ? (other than the fact that you can see it). But for example a pilot fights with the radio selector and well *shrug* gives in and has to go around. This "call est." Would be a good thing, but hey! This is europe and you're US

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Hi all!

 

We in Europe always say "descend altitude XX00 ft" or "descend FLXXX", so it's clear as well that we don't want the plane to descend XX00 ft but to that altitude. As already said I think as well the "maintain"-thing is a lawyer joke...

 

"positon and hold" and "line up and wait":

Since we in Germany will give you the instruction to "taxi to holding position rwy XX via ..." this might be easily mistaken for the "position and hold", so we have the "line up and wait"-phrase. As far as I know the Swiss and Austrians use "holding point" so there the problem is less severe but we all use "line up".

 

"report established":

There is no need to report when established in europe as well, except when the controller instructs you to do so. So in Munich you will most propably receive an instruction like this "DLH123, turn right heading 230, cleared ILS approach rwy 26R" or "DLH123, turn right heading 230, cleared localizer rwy 26R, report established". The second one is used when we have parallel approaches on both runways since we are only allowed to cancel the 1000 ft vertical seperation when both involved aircrafts are established on the LOC - therefore we need to know that detail. So one aircraft (the lower one at 4000 or 5000 ft) get's the clearance for the ILS and "report est." the second one (the higher one at 5000 or 6000 ft) just get's cleared for the LOC and "report est.". When both are established also the second one get's cleared for the ILS and may leave his last [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned altitude on the glide.

 

Greets

Micha

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I'll make it even more simple....it's in our "bible" to use "Decend and Maintain" so, why would we do it any other way?

John Binner,

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One of the reasons why the US uses "descend and maintain", is that the pilot could do anything he wants to keep his plane safe vertically if the 'maintain' wasn't there. If we just said "descend to 5000" or "descend 5000".. the former gets him down to 5000, then the pilot could do whatever he wants after he's at 5000, and would be legally in the right. The latter could mean either descend 5000ft from his current altitude, or descend down to 5000ft. So we explicitly say "maintain", so after they make it to 5000ft, they MUST REMAIN at 5000ft until told otherwise. Basically, the 'maintain' is implied in the UK/Europe, where it is not in the US.

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

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Guys,

 

I have a question.

 

I just did the rehersal of my first leg for the Denver event, even with ATC online (turned out that the freeware scenery for KDEN dropped to 1FPS down with noone else around - so no 16R for me at KDEN ).

 

I got a "climb intially to 1-7-seventeen-thousand" in the clearance, which confused me in the beginning. I did ask if that is 1-7-0-0-0 feet and we came into business

 

Now, from what I've read in the "flying IFR in the US for Dummies (Europeans )", I would have expected a "1-7-thousand" OR a "seventeen-thousand".

 

Now, that was maybe my 3rd time I was flying in the US, my 2nd time on Vatsim (the 1st one was about 9 Months ago or so). Is this common in the US (the 1-7-seventeen-thousand)? If so, I will adapt - if not, I do have one more experience

 

Best regards,

Jörg

 

PS: Just to be clear, I'm just curious, I don want to p*ss on anyone's leg or so.

PPS: had some "hard time" to become accustomed that in the US I'm no longer "Eurowings niner two three" but rather "Eurowings neiner twenty three" - but that was in that "for Dummies"

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I got a "climb intially to 1-7-seventeen-thousand" in the clearance, which confused me in the beginning. I did ask if that is 1-7-0-0-0 feet and we came into business

 

That is appropriate phraseology. It is used to reiterate an altitude for clarities sake. "one seven, seventeen thousand", or "one seven thousand" are both valid phrasologies.

Fred Clausen, vZAB ATM

ZAB real life

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PPS: had some "hard time" to become accustomed that in the US I'm no longer "Eurowings niner two three" but rather "Eurowings neiner twenty three" - but that was in that "for Dummies"

 

You may also here "Eurowings Nine Twenty-Three" from American controllers. We drop the "niner" part if the 9 is part of a longer number in an airline callsign. Some examples of how we call traffic:

 

Private aircraft:

N429AR "Cessna Four-Two-Niner-Alpha-Romeo"

N21759 "Baron Two-One-Seven-Five-Niner"

 

Airlines:

UAL020: "United Twenty"

AAL009 "American Niner"

AAL199 "American One Ninty-Nine"

DAL953 "Delta Nine Fifty-Four"

NWA100 "Northwest One Hundred"

SWA109 "Southwest One Zero Niner" (the zero separates the callsign according to the 7110.65 although some controllers shorten this to "Southwest One-Oh-Nine")

ASA2298: "Alaska Twenty-Two Ninty-Eight"

ASA2007: "Alaska Twenty Zero Seven" (again some controllers may say "Two thousand seven" even if against 7110.65"

JBU1000: "JetBlue One Thousand"

 

 

Hope that helps you with your US flights!

Jim Johnson

VP - Membership (VATGOV12)

j.johnson(at)vatsim.net

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Jim,

 

thanks for the advice,

 

While watching this thread, I realized, that I had flown pretty much all over Europe, Russia, China, Japon (not all on Vatsim since I have a past) but really only about 3 times in the US.

 

I had very professional ATC tononight on my personall rehersal, and I do intend to fly at least at some events in the US. On the other hand, time-zones are a natural explanation why I didn't visit the US as pilot more often - the guys must have had their launch break when I did my flying around 1900Z

 

I've not looked around the VATUSA site too close because I was mainly interested in the vARTCCs I'll visit on sunday... Since I'm a big fan of VFR flying, too - is there any "VFR for Dummies in the US"? Do VFR procedures differ from state to sate? I already guessed by looking at the charts, that we (the Germans and the US) have control zones in common. Your Airspace B is our D (CTR).

 

Beside flying VFR along the south coast of the UK, I'm interested in flying VFR in the US, maybe the grand cannion, Las Vegas and so on (sorry, I seem to be a typical tourist ) .

 

I'd be more than thankfull, if you could point me out to some "easy to read" sources, that explain VFR flying in the US (who shall I contact when and where and so on). I do have "The Pilots' "Free Flight" Atlas USA/Canada/Mexico ( http://www.absolutezero.de/?newlang=eng ) so I hopefully won't be totally lost

 

Best regards,

Jörg

 

 

Best rega

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Yes, Jack. I think its nice phraseology also. I’m an extreme novice. But considering my experience in other avenues, when you go into a field, there’s a jargon that comes along with it. Some of the words in the phraseology might appear unnecessary, but when you look at it, there might have been a time when it was very necessary and us experts might think it can p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] because of all that’s implied.

 

Someone else made a good point when they said, if the instruction to go to 5000 was given, the pilot went to 5000 for a matter of time, then decided to deviate, because the controller clearly said maintain, it would be harder for the pilot to find an excuse for having deviated.

 

As for the climb and descend, that’s nice to. It gets the listener’s ear ready to hear a new altitude. Go to 5000 might be kind of short. Climb and maintain 5000 might give just a little more substance for the listener’s ear to be prepared. That said, “c/mâ€

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Hey Larry. I am agreeing with the "maintain" portion of the clearance. Something liek "go to 5000 would be ridiculous! I just prefer to leave the climb and maintain out. When a controller give you a clearance "delta 500, climb and maintain 5000", the DELTA 500 should be the part that perks up the ears not the climb and maintain. I fly for a living and we get to the states every now and then and there aren't much phraseology differences. that climb and maintain is the one that stands out in my head. i just like "delta 800, maintain 5000". just my preference though.

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