What does supervisors write about VATSIM members?

[Jorge Diogo 820394]

I have to ask this, I consider this a serious question. Can someone tell me how can a Pilot or a Controller defend himself about anything that a supervisor write about him?

Imho I think this isn´t correct, any person have the right to a defense, and if he doesn´t know that the SUP wrote, how can he defend himself?

 

Jorge Diogo

ACCPT13

[George Marinakis]

Jorge:

 

If something you are involved in is referred to a Divisional Conflict Resolution Manager (DCRM), you have the right to request from the DCRM what was submitted in writing by the suspending supervisor as well as anything else that the DCRM is using to judge a case. The reason behind this right is so that you can defend yourself. This right is set out in Article VI of the Code of Regulations and has been in there since day one of VATSIM.

[Jorge Diogo 820394]

hello George,

 

I'm not involved in anything, anything that I know, but you didn´t replly to my answer. How can I know if any supervisor write about me? Imagine that any SUP doesn´t like what a pilot did or said to him in any conversation. The SUP writes what he think about the pilot and the "pilot" can´t defend himself because he doesn´t know that the SUP wrote!

 

I hope I'm clear about this situation now.

 

Regards

 

Jorge Diogo

ACCPT13

[George Marinakis]

I did answer your question Jorge. There is nothing to defend against unless the matter is referred to a DCRM so there is really nothing to be concerned about. If a matter is referred to a DCRM, then you may want to defend yourself against the allegation. In such an instance, you have a right under the Code of Regulations to see everything provided to the DCRM. There is no other situation where you might be called upon to defend yourself so there is nothing that a Supervisor can write that can have any consequence against your membership.

 

I suspect that what you are getting at is some sort of Supervisory misconduct. If you suspect such a thing, then you may always contact the VP of Supervisors (Michal Zazula) and ask him to investigate.

[Jorge Diogo 820394]

There is no other situation where you might be called upon to defend yourself so there is nothing that a Supervisor can write that can have any consequence against your membership.

 

So, what's the point for that "page" exists?

 

Sorry for my questions but I'm totaly against SECRET Information in a Hobby, mainly when this information afects the thinking in other SUP about the person in question!

 

Jorge Diogo

ACCPT13

[Daniel Hill 810430]

There is no other situation where you might be called upon to defend yourself so there is nothing that a Supervisor can write that can have any consequence against your membership.

 

So, what's the point for that "page" exists?

 

Sorry for my questions but I'm totaly against SECRET Information in a Hobby, mainly when this information afects the thinking in other SUP about the person in question!

 

Jorge Diogo

ACCPT13

 

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- Hamlet, Act 3 Scene 2

 

Jorge, I think what George is saying is that if official action is warranted regarding the behavior of any VATSIM member, then that member has a right to see the "evidence" against him.

 

If, on the other hand, what was said/written by the supervisor is judged inconsequential (meaning no action is to be taken against the VATSIM member), then what was said falls into the area of private conversation -- and that you do not have a right to see/hear.

 

It is quite apparent that you are worried about someone's opinion of you. Get used to it -- you're in for a lifetime of it. As George said, if you believe you were rudely spoken to by a Supervisor, take it to the VP of Supervisors. If you're worried about what a Supervisor thinks about you, you can't control that and you can't prosecute based on thought (at least, not in the USA).

Edited June 26, 2006 at 06:26 PM by Guest

[Matthew Horan 901577]

I would think of it as a papertrail, to keep track of repeat offenders - if you follow the rules on the network though, it shouldn't be a problem for you

[Aaron Flodin 878523]

if you follow the rules on the network though, it shouldn't be a problem for you

 

I think we have a winner

[George Anopov 895164]

As far as i concerned, they put info about your rating upgrades, division changes, conflict results and stuff like that.

 

 

PS I'm mot against this "secret page", almost everywhere admins have special log-files for their users, however, it should be transparent, user should be able to read his log-file.

[Jorge Diogo 820394]

I think we have a winner

 

This is not a contest! Probably my concern is about people like you, that I'm worried about. Whe don´t need comments like this. I only ask a simple and pertinent question.

 

I'm concerned about this matter because I had a serious chat with one supervisor that asked me if i was in the cockpit when I was under a controlled zone with ATC. There are good and bad SUP, how can we be sure that they write what really happen? ( I have all the chat recorded)

 

If this "secret page" is not important as George said, so why does it exists?

 

Regards

 

Jorge Diogo

ACCPT13

[Matthew Horan 901577]

Jorge,

 

Think of it as an idiom - what he meant is that I addressed the issue in the most simple of terms.. you shouldn't be worried about whats in your record unless you're violating the rules

[Fred Clausen]

He brings up a good issue. Why can't I see my record? I'm not a discipline problem, I doubt my record shows I am a big bad guy, but even still why can't information relevant to me be shown to me?

[Oliver Smith]

Well. I think this is an intresting issue.. My personal opinion is that we should be able to view things wriitten against us, if you get a speeding ticket you get piece of paper, not just an offficer that sais you got one

[Fred Clausen]

Well. I think this is an intresting issue.. My personal opinion is that we should be able to view things wriitten against us, if you get a speeding ticket you get piece of paper, not just an offficer that sais you got one

 

Its not so much that; as was mentioned above if you have an issue you can request your records. The thing that I don't understand is that regardless of your status (good, bad, in trouble, etc) why can't we see the records? A flippant dismissal of the issue by saying "don't worry about it unless you get in trouble" is not an answer. If there is a reason (ie, protect SUP privacy...bad example I know) I would like to hear it. Otherwise, it lends a lot of credence to the conspiracy theorists we have who want to believe VATSIM has something to hide. For the record, I don't think that and I dont believe these records show anything that will be a problem.

[Richard Jenkins]

Well...to put it in simple terms. 95% of the records contain nothing. 5% contain discipline matters or information about members who create multiple accounts and what we do to track their multiple accounts. And I'm certainly not going to tell some of our more adventerous members how we are able to find all their accounts.

 

Fred, as an NDA'd developer you are quite aware of the protocol and the means we have to track multiple accounts from the same user. Do we really want to show them how to create even more accounts?

 

In short, that database is not open for disclosure.

[Fred Clausen]

Yes, I'm aware of those things Richard. The original query has been answered, and the answer makes sense to me.

[George Anopov 895164]

Well...to put it in simple terms. 95% of the records contain nothing. 5% contain discipline matters or information about members who create multiple accounts and what we do to track their multiple accounts. And I'm certainly not going to tell some of our more adventerous members how we are able to find all their accounts.

 

Fred, as an NDA'd developer you are quite aware of the protocol and the means we have to track multiple accounts from the same user. Do we really want to show them how to create even more accounts?

 

In short, that database is not open for disclosure.

 

Mr Jenkins, so what is the problem if the person who have registered second account later on read that Vatsim Staff has identified this action in his log-file? He will be just aware that such jokes are easily traceable within Vatsim...

From my point of view, multi-accounts is a hot point for all admins all over the Internet, however i think it is easily prosecutable in Vatsim as special scripts log not only ip from which the account had been registered, but also each ip once member is connecting to Vatsim via SB of ASRC. Futhermore, i'm totally convinced that each account doesn't take such a big space on the server, that Vatsim staff should start a war against multi-accounts. Probably 300 bytes or so per each account with all statiasctics...

 

Overall in my opinion we must be allowed to see our own log-files.

[George Marinakis]

Mr. Anopov:

 

I think we have been more than open about this issue.

 

a) The VATSIM database belongs to VATSIM. It is not open to public and/or membership review.

 

b) The vast majority of that database contains nothing other than a member's registration information.

 

c) The remaining number contains disciplinary records and records of multiple accounts or other irregularities in one's membership.

 

Now....here is the part everyone keeps glossing over because some have the idea that there is some great conspiracy against them and that VATSIM staff is creating terrabytes of records which will someday be held against them (which is absolutely absurd BTW)....

 

d) The only time one's "record" (see item © above) becomes relevant is if they are involved in a disciplinary matter or there is some irregularity in their membership. As we have stated above and on numerous other occasions, if that happens, you will know it is happening because you will have received a message from a Sup or membership or an notice of some kind from VATSIM. If you are involved in a disciplinary matter referred to a DCRM, then you have the right under the Code of Regulations to ask to see the evidence which has been submitted by the Sup and is before the DCRM. This has been the case since day one of VATSIM.

 

The rights afforded to VATSIM members are FAR OVER AND ABOVE those of any other online flight simulation community, hands down. We are open about our rules and you know exactly where you stand when it comes to your membership. That does not mean that your rights extend to viewing all of VATSIM's records. If there is ever an issue which may result in the limitation of your access to our network, then you absolutely are made aware of it and we tell you exactly why.

 

Look around at some of your other online options....it won't get anymore transparent than this folks.

[George Anopov 895164]

Ok Mr. Marinakis

I agree with you in most cases, however, i will keep my opinion that such log-files should be revealed. If there is nothing except conflict resolutions, there is no point to hide it from others eyes.

In most forums as an example you are allowed to see why you have been warned or/and banned. This is what we call democracy...

[George Marinakis]

In most forums as an example you are allowed to see why you have been warned or/and banned.

 

And how is it that you don't get that now? Again, VATSIM goes above and beyond what other online organizations do in matters of membership (where one day, you just wake up and find yourself thrown out with no explanation whatsoever).

 

This is my last post on this subject as we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Steven Rogers 901202]

Ok Mr. Marinakis

I agree with you in most cases, however, i will keep my opinion that such log-files should be revealed. If there is nothing except conflict resolutions, there is no point to hide it from others eyes.

In most forums as an example you are allowed to see why you have been warned or/and banned. This is what we call democracy...

 

As George and Richard have said, 95% of records contain nothing other than email address, names, controller and region statues (stati?) etc. All of which can already be found on the statistics page.

 

Again as stated by Mr Jenkins and Marinakis, the other 5% contain details on disiciplinary action and other details that wouldn't be suitable. Just imagine if it was public access how someone managed to get two accounts, or somehow get around the 'free' email account ban (for lack of a better word). Also, I'm sure if you were suspended for misconduct of any kind, you would not want everyone seeing exactly what you were suspended for.

 

Again, as stated by the big-wigs, you can request details on your own records, should the situation call for it. But really, if this is not the case, what is the point of seeing details of members which are readily available elsewhere?

 

Vatsim is a very friendly community, releasing disiciplinary details may turn members against each other.

 

My AU 2c.

[Aaron Flodin 878523]

This is what we call democracy...

 

VATSIM isn't a democracy.

 

de·moc·ra·cy Audio pronunciation of "democracy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)

n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

 

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

2. A political or social unit that has such a government.

3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

4. Majority rule.

5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

[George Anopov 895164]

Democracy is not only about political factors.

 

No5 is applicable for situation we are discussing...

[Ross Carlson]

Democracy is not only about political factors.

 

No5 is applicable for situation we are discussing...

 

I don't understand ... it has been explained several times that if your VATSIM record contains information that you may have cause to defend yourself against, you will be given the opportunity to read it. What more do you need, Mr. Anopov, to feel "socially equal" or respected as an individual here on VATSIM?

[George Anopov 895164]

Democracy is not only about political factors.

 

No5 is applicable for situation we are discussing...

 

I don't understand ... it has been explained several times that if your VATSIM record contains information that you may have cause to defend yourself against, you will be given the opportunity to read it. What more do you need, Mr. Anopov, to feel "socially equal" or respected as an individual here on VATSIM?

 

I do understand the fact that we may request that infomation. However, in my opinion it should be allowed to read own log-files straight away, not via somebody.