People using "active runways" when theres not ATC online.

[Nick Saffari]

Alright so this is one that i've been thinking about for a while. I was flying into KPHX and coming straight in on RWY 8. The wind was 250@1, so I figured eh, I might as well go straight in. I was yelled at by so many pilots on unicom saying "UR NOT USING THE ACTIVE RUNWAYS SIR!!!!" There was no ATC on, therefore no active runway. Its just like an uncontrolled field. People need to know this. Im an Air Traffic Controller at ZLA (S2). I know what I'm talking about.

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

There's probably going to be lots said here about "active", "realism", and "traffic flow" but the bottom line is that you did nothing wrong. I probably would have done the same. All you can do is stay civil and respond, "there is no controller online for this region and so there is no "active runway" and leave it at that. If they continue then .wallop is your friend.

 

The key...stay civil, stay calm, stay cool and let all the other armchair "controllers" make themselves out to look ridiculous.

 

And by the way, it is my opinion, and my opinion only, that one of the one of the easiest ways to look foolish is to caveat everything with "I know what I'm talking about". Often times that is not the case, although please understand I am not inferring that is the case here. Yet all of "them" also "knew what they were talking about" as well...or they thought they did.

 

Randy

[Andreas Fuchs]

....some airports have a preferred runway configuration in place.... I am a C3, I know what I am talking about

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Ah yes, but you see, Andreas, you do know what you are talking about...and I bow to your wisdom, sir

[Andreas Fuchs]

LOL, correct answer!!!

[Ross Carlson]

There was no ATC on, therefore no active runway. Its just like an uncontrolled field.

 

This could be an issue of semantics. In the context of an uncontrolled field, some or all of those other pilots may be using the term "active runway" to refer to the runway that is being used by most or all of the aircraft operating at that field at the current moment.

 

When flying at an uncontrolled field in the real world, you'll hear different terms used to describe the runway in use. When an aircraft approaches the field, the pilot may transmit on unicom and ask other pilots which runway is in use, and the pilot might use language like "which runway is active?"

 

In other words, your definition of the term "active runway" as a virtual controller on VATSIM, cannot be considered a global definition. You cannot expect everyone to avoid that term when there is no controller online.

 

So, if the other pilots at PHX were using west ops, and you come along and land east, it is not unreasonable for them to say that you are not using the active runway. In my opinion, the real question is, was there sufficient communication between you and the other pilots as you approached the field, such that you were aware of what the other pilots were doing, and such that they were aware that you were planning to land straight-in to the east? If the answer to that question is yes, then they had no reason to give you a hard time, provided you did what you said you were going to do and didn't conflict with other traffic. If the answer to that question is no, then I would say they chided you appropriately, just as I would expect and have observed in the real world.

[Andreas Fuchs]

"active runway" is probably a poor choice in these circomestances. Maybe "operating runway" would be better, at least for me as a non-native speaker.

[Alex Long]

Something to bear in mind, runway choice is also based upon the wind. Real world, the weather is what it is, and it's the same for everyone in the area. Here on VATSIM, there are multiple sources of weather, in addition to options for historical weather, in addition to you setting your own. Personally, UNICOM would be your friend in this case and if you had multiple aircraft who were inbound and in the pattern, or on approach, I'd try and use the same runway. Otherwise, I'm going to use the runway that is most appropriate according to what I can determine from their real-world operations, or what the weather in my simulator or the real world METAR would dictate being the most appropriate.

 

This is something everyone on here has to keep in mind, we all aren't playing from the same book when it comes to weather. I could be controlling a field that the real world weather is 3/4 SM visibility and OVC002 OVC005 with tops to 2500', but you call for VFR clearance. I'd advise against VFR flight in those conditions, but you may be using a weather preset for SCT050 and visibility 10SM and perfectly acceptable for VFR flight.

[Matthew Kramer]

In the real world, when landing at an uncontrolled field, or even a towered airport where the tower is closed, it's the pilot's responsibility to determine the operational environment of the airport and make a safe choice. If you get on CTAF and find everyone is departing 26, it's a poor choice to fly straight in runway 8. And while the real world has no shortage of people who do things like this "because it's legal," they are still being inconsiderate if not just technically legal.

 

On VATSIM, we must also take into account that any towered airport, especially a large international one, can become a controlled airport on a moment's notice. It's in the best interest of everyone to be on the same page should ATC come online.

 

I'll be on teamspeak later tonight, Nick, and we can talk this out in depth if you're curious.

[Kirk Christie]

Couple of problems here

 

1, People on unicom need to mind their own business, and I have no issues with telling people who try to tell me what to do to take a hike.

 

2, Reciprocal, Cross, LAHSO and Simultaneous runway operations are all valid modes of runway usage when ATC is online, so I don't see what the big deal is if some one is coming in on the other end, when ATC is off line.

 

3, The whole purpose of UNICOM is to announce your intentions, so that others know what you are doing, and can plan around it, if you intend to land on the other end of the runway and you make that known, then there should be no issue for a pilot to hold short at the other end and wait for you.

 

The biggest problem in the uncontrolled environment is that everyone online thinks they are entitled to be there first, and no one bothers to give way to other aircraft regardless if the intentions have been communicated.

 

Something to bear in mind, runway choice is also based upon the wind.

Wind only plays a small role in the selection of a runway, and usually only has an influence over 10 knots. Most airports will operate on the preferred runway mode until the wind gets up around that level.

Other factors that influence a runway selection is,

Noise abatement/residential area,

Availability of landing aids,

Runway capacity,

Availability of serviceable taxiways.

[Matthew Kramer]

3, The whole purpose of UNICOM is to announce your intentions, so that others know what you are doing, and can plan around it, if you intend to land on the other end of the runway and you make that known, then there should be no issue for a pilot to hold short at the other end and wait for you.

 

I mean, if you arrive at an airport where pilots are all lined up for 26 and you are lining up for 8, then you are the one who needs to plan around the other airplanes. The uncontrolled environment is about working with each other and going with the flow. If for operational reasons you need a different runway, that's on you to stay out of the traffic flow until there's an opportunity for you to land how you need or want to.

[Nick Warren]

Im an Air Traffic Controller at ZLA (S2). I know what I'm talking about.

Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] dismissed then I guess

[Matthew Kosmoski 891361]

"active runway" is probably a poor choice in these circomestances. Maybe "operating runway" would be better, at least for me as a non-native speaker.

 

In uncontrolled ops, whatever runway you want to use is operating That being said, right of way applies. In the US, that is defined by 14 CFR 91.113 - Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

 

....some airports have a preferred runway configuration in place.... I am a C3, I know what I am talking about

 

Yeah, but it's not published for pilots. If they read the AF/D, there may be a calm wind runway noted, but that's going to be about it. For controllers flying in airspace they know on network, sure, but preferred configs have no bearing on uncontrolled ops.

 

Err, I suppose the preferred wording is Airports Without Operating Control Towers, anyhow.

[Matthew Kosmoski 891361]

3, The whole purpose of UNICOM is to announce your intentions, so that others know what you are doing, and can plan around it, if you intend to land on the other end of the runway and you make that known, then there should be no issue for a pilot to hold short at the other end and wait for you.

 

I mean, if you arrive at an airport where pilots are all lined up for 26 and you are lining up for 8, then you are the one who needs to plan around the other airplanes. The uncontrolled environment is about working with each other and going with the flow. If for operational reasons you need a different runway, that's on you to stay out of the traffic flow until there's an opportunity for you to land how you need or want to.

 

Aircraft on final has right of way over aircraft on the surface, however.

[Barry Martin Edwards]

VATSIM Code of Conduct

B7. Pilot's Conduct

Pilots flying through uncontrolled airspace should set their VHF radio frequency to 122.80 or other designated "Unicom" frequency and monitor until they come under air traffic control coverage.

 

If everyone connected on Vatsim where there is no ATC online ,follows this rule,then by monitoring the Freq 122.80 you should be able to find out the rwy in use by asking on the freq,and if there is no reply from anyone,then check Metars or ATIS of the nearest airfield with ATC online,or check the airfield charts.

[Kirk Christie]

VATSIM Code of Conduct

B7. Pilot's Conduct

Pilots flying through uncontrolled airspace should set their VHF radio frequency to 122.80 or other designated "Unicom" frequency and monitor until they come under air traffic control coverage.

 

If everyone connected on Vatsim where there is no ATC online ,follows this rule,then by monitoring the Freq 122.80 you should be able to find out the rwy in use by asking on the freq,and if there is no reply from anyone,then check Metars or ATIS of the nearest airfield with ATC online,or check the airfield charts.

 

The rule is that you monitor it.

 

When you ask the runway in use on unicom, who is responsible for providing that information? what makes that person replying with a runway, authorised to do so? Uncontrolled airspace means that, no one is in control, no one can define a runway to other members, if you want to control, then log in and control. Otherwise, monitor unicom, and if some one announces they are inbound on another runway, then that rule is being upheld.

 

As mentioned above, pilots on the ground should give way to pilots in the air. If the pilot in the air has decided to use the other end of the runway to that where pilots wanting to depart, the pilots wanting to depart "should" give way.

[Barry Martin Edwards]

VATSIM Code of Conduct

B7. Pilot's Conduct

Pilots flying through uncontrolled airspace should set their VHF radio frequency to 122.80 or other designated "Unicom" frequency and monitor until they come under air traffic control coverage.

 

If everyone connected on Vatsim where there is no ATC online ,follows this rule,then by monitoring the Freq 122.80 you should be able to find out the rwy in use by asking on the freq,and if there is no reply from anyone,then check Metars or ATIS of the nearest airfield with ATC online,or check the airfield charts.

 

The rule is that you monitor it.

 

When you ask the runway in use on unicom, who is responsible for providing that information? what makes that person replying with a runway, authorised to do so? Uncontrolled airspace means that, no one is in control, no one can define a runway to other members, if you want to control, then log in and control. Otherwise, monitor unicom, and if some one announces they are inbound on another runway, then that rule is being upheld.

 

As mentioned above, pilots on the ground should give way to pilots in the air. If the pilot in the air has decided to use the other end of the runway to that where pilots wanting to depart, the pilots wanting to depart "should" give way.

 

"no one can define a runway to other members"fair comment,but even pilots on the ground(and in the air) have a duty to check Metars and be able to decide from the Metar which is the appropiate rwy to use.

[Andre Almeida]

Yes, yep do. However there are some details that a departure pilot that is unfamiliar with the airport might miss.

 

For example, Lisbon. Runway 03 has ILS CAT I (well, since last month 03 has CAT III as well, but let's ignore that detail ), Runway 21 has ILS CAT III. Ergo, Runway 21 is used in LVO. If winds are 100@06 a departure might look at it and think "Okay, runway 03 is the most appropriate runway", and he wouldn't be wrong if the METAR didn't include VV001 and OVC003. Runway 03 could still be the best for him, looking at the winds, but an arrival will be approaching runway 21 since that is the only runway it can use.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Slightly tangential, but, this is also related to why the runways in use at a *staffed* VATSIM airport might not always match what the real world is using.

 

For example -- Dulles (KIAD). Let's say winds are 300 at 5. Real-world and VATSIM will both use North Ops, landing 1's, departing 30. Now, the wind shifts and is 230 @ 5. The real-world Dulles has several dozen arrivals & several dozen departures, so it's not worth reconfiguring the entire Potomac Bravo for a five-knot quartering tailwind. But on VATSIM I have one arrival & one actively preparing to depart, so, I'm switching to South 30 & I update my ATIS accordingly.

 

... and, invariably, the next know-it-all who enters the airspace will give me lip because I'm not using the same runways they're using in the real world, and will disconnect when I try to explain why South-30 is the appropriate configuration for the conditions.

 

Sorry -- thread un-highjacked.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Sounds like an test-alias would be appropriate to save you the trouble of explaining it again and again.

[Kirk Christie]

Slightly tangential, but, this is also related to why the runways in use at a *staffed* VATSIM airport might not always match what the real world is using.

 

For example -- Dulles (KIAD). Let's say winds are 300 at 5. Real-world and VATSIM will both use North Ops, landing 1's, departing 30. Now, the wind shifts and is 230 @ 5. The real-world Dulles has several dozen arrivals & several dozen departures, so it's not worth reconfiguring the entire Potomac Bravo for a five-knot quartering tailwind. But on VATSIM I have one arrival & one actively preparing to depart, so, I'm switching to South 30 & I update my ATIS accordingly.

 

... and, invariably, the next know-it-all who enters the airspace will give me lip because I'm not using the same runways they're using in the real world, and will disconnect when I try to explain why South-30 is the appropriate configuration for the conditions.

 

Sorry -- thread un-highjacked.

 

I work on a different process, I will use the preferred, noise abatement configuration until the wind exceeds the nominated limits, which is usually 5 knots.

 

That is for any wind less that 5 knots regardless of direction at YSSY its land 34L and Depart 16L.

[Patrik Yngver]

I run into this from time to time, due to flying at obscure hours and destinations with some frequency

 

This type of "lecture" usually comes from a newer member that hasn't quite grasped the "spririt of VATSIM" yet, hence might confuse the "As real as it gets" slogan from MSFS to be shared with VATSIM, in no small part due to the fact that we do try to implement realism as much as possible.

 

In my opinion I keep a tool such as VATspy handy and when it's time to approach I check for any conflicting traffic and usually contact them via private message if they aren't awoken by my UNICOM message that includes my expected runway. In some cases I change my runway to match other traffic and in some cases the other pilot(s) will adjust to my selection. This works most of the time and personally if someone is "cranky" about their runway selection, there's no major issue for me to accomodate that, as it usually doesn't add or subtract many minutes to/from the flight.

 

Talk and co-ordinate, that's the best recipe and who knows, you might end up with a new friend too!

[Don Desfosse]

Thank you, Patrik, for an excellent, well-reasoned, and very reasonable approach. You set the bar high; I pray many/most/all will follow your excellent example.