Why did RouteFinder give me the wrong route?

[Steen Jorgensen 1187013]

I know VATSIM recommends vRoute for route planning, but unfortunately, I'm using linux, so I can't run vRoute.

 

I've read somewhere that you can use http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ to find a route. This has worked fine for at couple of nights, but this time it failed me. I needed to find a route from EKYT to EKCH - the result was this:

 

https://i.imgur.com/GL6m1R8.png

 

When I requested IFR clearance, I was told that this is the wrong route from EKYT to EKCH, but this is what RouteFinder gave me. Is RouteFinder not to be trusted, and what should one use instead?

 

Best regards,

Steen

[Tomas Hansson]

I would recommend SimBrief.com. Not only will it give you the route (usually by attempting to pull current flight data) but will also calculate your required fuel and provide weather info. The amount of information it gives you could be quite daunting so read the manual.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Yes, Routefinder can produce strange routings. Vroute is indeed a very good alternative, recommended.

 

Give Qutescoop a try: https://sourceforge.net/projects/qutescoop/

The route-function will give you access to vroute as well

[Dace Nicmane]

Routefinder is usually fine. I can't tell about this specific case but if ATC gives me another route I just note it down and in the future use what they prefer.

[Andreas Fuchs]

RouteFinder outputs a lot of invalid routes in Europe. Please don't use it as your primary way to generate routes. We do have some great route databases that are free of charge. Namely vroute, that had been mentioned before. Vroute regularly checks existing routes for compliance with AIP-rules and the European Central Flow Management Unit for validity. You can add new routes, but they will be checked against the same sources to guarantee a minimum level of realism.

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

But Andreas, as he stated in the OP...

 

VATSIM recommends vRoute for route planning, but unfortunately, I'm using linux, so I can't run vRoute

 

Can't vouch for the statement that because of Linux he cannot use it, but I see no reason for him to make it up. Does vRoute, which I use exclusively, except for US Routes (flightaware is my "go to" there), work in Linux or no? If no, then where is he to go that will work with Linux?

 

Randy

[Markus Vitzethum]

I have a question, just out of curiosity.

 

When plotting this route, from the looks it is a good route: AAL L621 ERNOV ERNO1C.

It works, it is short and direct, ends up at a proper EKCH arrival route. I wouldn't call that a "wrong route". I expect that it will work in a flight sim environment.

 

I just doesn't get validated by the CFMU validator. The route AAL T551 TESPI TESP2C does (which is slightly longer, and probably the reason why not picked by routefinder).

 

But is it a requirement to fly/file CFMU validated routes on VATSIM? I'm not a aware of any requirement asking me to do so?

Sure enough, the controller may suggest a better route (which I prefer to call the filed route a "wrong route") and in this particular case I might happily accept that.

 

But when I file for a complicated long haul route and I'm all set up when calling for clearance, or when already airborne, just crossing CFMU airspace, this can be quite a hazzle to replan the route for CFMU conformity.

 

Markus

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Randy,

Can't vouch for the statement that because of Linux he cannot use it, but I see no reason for him to make it up. Does vRoute, which I use exclusively, except for US Routes (flightaware is my "go to" there), work in Linux or no? If no, then where is he to go that will work with Linux?

that's why I mentioned in my previous post that Steen should try Qutescoop. Qutescoop supposedly works with Windows, MacOS and Linux. I cannot test anything but Windows for a lack of using the other OS.

 

Within Qutescoop you will find a route-dialogue that has direct access to vroute's database! You can search routes and even display them on QT's map.

 

 

In this example I looked up routes from EKYT to EKCH, Markus' example. I also imported his self-made route as "user route". This way it is possible to compare them.

 

Markus, as you have found out, your preferred route does not get accepted by CFMU, because there are rules for airspace use. The error message reads:

PROF205: RS: TRAFFIC VIA ERNOV IS OFF MANDATORY ROUTE REF:[DS5557A] ERNOV NOT AVBL FOR

Did you use vroute to add the route? If not, vroute does not only provide you with the above error message, but also with a working link to CFMU's RAD (Route Availability Docomeent), where you can search for restriction "5557":

As you can see, ERNOV is not allowed, because they are trying to spread traffic instead of channelling it.

 

 

Now, for your question: yes, you can use your makeshift-route. Should you have ATC online for your flight, the controller will probably ask you to use a more realistic route and maybe even provide you with it. But no ATCO can force you to you another routing. If the ATCO really does not want you to follow the filed routing, he can and will provide you with vectors after takeoff or simply clear you to another fix. Easy.

 

Oh yeah, and re-routings are our daily business in real life. I just had that on a flight from LIRA to LIPO. Don't try to avoid challenges, grow with them. The more often you change FMS-routings while flying, the easier it will be in the future. As airline or IFR pilot this should be second nature.

[Andreas Fuchs]

And I forgot to mention: when flying in and around the North American continent, you can and should source your routes from official realworld flights. How do I do it?

I go to https://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt and insert the city-pair (ICAO codes) and get the latest routes, including callsigns, type of aircraft, level used and frequency of use of certain routes. Try KJFK-KMIA: https://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt?origin=KJFK&destination=KMIA

 

I usually take it a step further and also simulate the real gate/parking used: https://www.flightstats.com/v2/flight-tracker/search

Insert the city-pair or the airline+flight number and there you go!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Steen, have you had time to test if Qutescoop will work on Linux?

[Alex Ying]

For the US, my first stop would be to check the vARTCC's site for their preferred route database. Many of the VATUSA sites have them. For example, New York's or Boston's.

 

If you don't find it there, then check the FAA's preferred route database at https://testfly.faa.gov/rmt/nfdc_preferred_routes_database.jsp.

 

I generally only use FlightAware if I don't find a route in any of the PRDs or I need a SWAP route.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Alex,

 

wouldn't the routes used in the real world be the same?

[Robert Shearman Jr]

wouldn't the routes used in the real world be the same?

In the real world, flights occasionally file routes other than the FAA-preferred ones for weather avoidance. Such routes often end up on FlightAware, where VATSIM pilots file them hours or days after the weather in question has moved on.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Rob,

 

sure yes, but since this would be a temporary phenomena you would clearly see that only a limited number of flights had used these routes, but the standard FAA routes still would have a top score in their statistics.

[Alex Ying]

While that's usually true, it's not always true. I've seen SWAP routes be the most frequent route on FlightAware before. And even if not, someone who looks at FlightAware may not necessarily choose the most frequent route or the correct route for their type of aircraft when multiple routes are available. Additionally, FlightAware sometimes chops off earlier fixes if a flight gets a shortcut or the filed altitude will be listed incorrectly.

 

That's why I would recommend the PRDs first, since those are organized for that specific purpose and not dependent on archived data which may have artifacts or have processing errors. That's not to say FlightAware isn't a good resource, it definitely is, but using it requires a bit more knowledge and skill to pick out the signal from the noise.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Alex,

 

thanks for the explanation, makes sense. I just think that it would not be dramatic to use an easy to access route database such as FlightAware or SkyVector - otherwise we'll make things too complicated again. We need to find a balance, if you ask me.

 

And it's a pity that the OP, Steen, has not provided any feedback whether Qutescoop worked on his machine or not. It would solve his issues with flightplans of poor quality. Makes you feel like "why did I reply at all?"....