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VATJPN & VATKOR Union?


Jewon Lee 909227
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To whom in charge of VATJPN event coordination:

 

My name is Jewon Lee, an instructor of VATKOR Seoul Approach. I am here to write a suggestion for both us and our Japanese collegue about possible events we can set up.

 

As you may know, VATASIA region is suffering a big loss in traffic count past few months or years and VATKOR is no exception. These days we rearely see any traffic in the Asian region except Saturday or Friday night. Unlike countries like the United States or region like European region, we are, for geographic reason, at under-previledged stand. Most domestic flights take place only one hour or so on the same routes they flew a couple hundred times (simply, BORING).

 

Lot of people get also bored because there are almost no trans-oceanic or international flights with a continuous ATC service for both destination and departure point. Finally, I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that VATJPN is taking some damage from current on-going traffic loss within VATASIA.

 

Therefore, I suggest that we set up an international event that occurs REGULARLY. Possibly once every week or two weeks. By setting up an event for between Korean and Japanese side, usual flights would take about 2 hours or so and interest of people could increase dramatically because they are doing an international flight and talking to the ATC constantly.

 

I estimate that the number of two countries' traffic will increase significantly and it will add more fun for pilots and also controllers as well. It will be a WIN-WIN strategy for both countries.

 

If VATJPN division is interested in this idea, please reply back and we can discuss details to make it happen.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

 

Best Regards,

Jewon Lee

CFI/II/MEI/AGI/IGI

 

Incheon vACC

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I think that would be a lot of fun, but there is another factor to consider when talking about the lack of traffic in the Asian region.

 

When I lived in Tokyo, I VERY rarely flew on VATSIM, simply because I do the majority of my flights in the USA, and when I was able to fly (in the evenings), it was the early morning in the United States, so there weren't many controllers online. This is the same case the other way around. When it is morning in the USA, it's Asia's night, so it is a difficult thing to coordinate. Most people do their flying/controlling on VATSIM in the evenings, meaning if the USA's evenings are Asia's mornings, there isn't likely to be ATC.

 

Nonetheless, please let me know when you're event is if you do decide to make one, I'll be there

Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large

 

"Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there."

- Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines

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Nicholas,

 

That is also a good point and that is reason why I am suggesting this idea.

 

Inevitably we are blocked from USA or European region due to the time difference. Also, the numbers of users in Asian region is somewhat restricted than North American region. By combining both Korean and Japanese traffic (and in the future maybe Hong Kong traffic also), we would have more traffic volume for each country and make stuff simply... more FUN!

 

As I said before, It is a Win-Win strategy.

 

Regards,

Jewon Lee

CFI/II/MEI/AGI/IGI

 

Incheon vACC

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Perhaps an event including ATC coverage in China would be fun?

 

Right now VATPRC is trying to get the word out so we can attract more traffic, but that only happens when you have staffed positions. We are trying our best to recruit more controllers so we have longer periods of staffing, therefore drawing more traffic. Events never hurt in helping us reach our goal. Should you wish to collaborate, contact [email protected]

Jay Hsu

ZME ARTCC

VATPRC Resource Manager

http://www.vatprc.net

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Mr. Hsu,

 

Well, first of all, I am not sure that VATPRC is actually recognized by the VATSIM network as a division. You may want to be a little careful what you call yourself.

 

Back to the point:

 

I don't care if you are Chinese or Japanese.

 

This is an effort to desperately increase VATKOR's traffic count and also VATASIA's one.

 

One thing, however, you may already know that VATKOR has a close tie with VATROC also. I have heard lots of things regarding your side and VATROC side. VATKOR would like to accept your offer strictly based on one condition: People's Republic of China ACC and VATROC shall coordinate with each other regarding a current on-going relationship and define what their stance is when holding an event with us, VATKOR.

 

The reason I am asking this is that VATKOR does not intend to hurt any relationship with VATROC nor VATASIA staff members who are mainly from Hong Kong vACC and VATROC, in order to create a new relationship.

 

 

Best Regards,

Jewon Lee

CFI/II/MEI/AGI/IGI

 

Incheon vACC

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Just a brief opinion about what you're thinkin.....

 

Lee, Oceanic area has also got similar time line to East Asia's and you might already know that most of oceanic people usually flies with Hong Kong, or Japan.

 

So, shall we say that they don't like Korea region because they don't take Korea into their route...? well,,, better to look at 'Why?' then fix it rather than thinking of new idea.

 

I - this is my own opinion - strongly suggest to increase the number of controllers in both Korea&Japan or maybe in whole Asia region. Compare the number of traffics between Hongkong and Korea to the number of controllers online in both two regions..

 

In Korea, for instance, there are many small Korean websites that Koreans can join there and fly with other people.

 

Why don't they take VATSIM into their account..? Is it just because VATSIM is in English and they just don't fit with it....?

 

I definitely think that to grow traffics in Korea region, VATKOR need to co-operate with other regions too not only with closer countries (eg. Japan, Hongkong, Taiwan...)

 

Maybe with Australia or even further New Zealand....? And maybe once a month..? or even once a two months..?

 

It is sure that there won't be many traffics between VATKOR&VATPAC event, but we can show them that we're still alive and happy to receive oceanic traffics....!

 

For example, a VATUSA&VATUK event called 'cross the pond', there are so so so so so sososososo many traffics there even if it takes over 6 hours.

 

Well, just my opinion ! Hope there's an advance in VATKOR region....!

 

Kindly written from :::

Mr. Han

Divisional Director

VATSIM - DCRM

VATKOR

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I still think the time difference is playing a major role in this. It doesn't seem there are a substantial amount of Asian pilots on the network (given that usually pilots fly in their local regions) to support the ATC that are staffing up the region. Therefore, I think if controllers started staffing up the region in the morning, which would be evening US and European time, and you are more likely to get pilots.

 

*2 cents.*

 

P.S. If anyone wants to staff up RJTY Tuesday morning (evening your time), you'll get at least one departure

Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large

 

"Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there."

- Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines

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Well, regarding your criticism that VATKOR is not taking their domestic pilots seriously:

 

We do value our a few but precious domestic pilots. In my honest opinion, we may have a best training resource available on the web showing how to connect into the VATSIM network and how to communicate effectively with ATCs online. VATKOR1, Mr Choi, did a fantastic job writing those material.

 

However, the biggest problem we have for VATKOR is that most pilots and even few controllers are not willing to learn and comply with rules.

 

As an ATC instructor, I don't expect you memorize the entire 7110.65 or Korean ATC SOP. However, I expect you to understand what the basic rule is such as separation minima and standard phraseology and what air traffic control's purpose is. I still hear center controllers saying "Radar Contact" when they are accepting a handoff from the lower-level approach controllers and I still hear some giving heading of "313" and some taking ah... and uh... too long in their transmission causing severe frequency congestion.

 

Pilots are no different. I am pretty sure you saw my article on VATKOR website (if you follow) regarding our safety breach happened few days ago. I still see pilots not knowing what Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A, B, C, D, and E airspaces are and their operating limitations. I still encouter pilots operating VFR requesting FL240. I still get frustrated dealing with so many pilots who finally understand "Turn left heading 320, descend and maintain 7000" after repeating myself five times and take ten minutes to follow my instruction.

 

Do you really think it is only because of the lack of controllers? Think again. Controllers control based on the agreement with pilots: Pilots always comply with ATC instructions unless an emergency. They are also required to follow the basic rules, not only for the sake of controllers' effectiveness in separation but for the safety's sake.

 

When majority of local pilots don't care to comply with insturctions and do not care to learn the most basic operating safety rules, controllers get frustrated and they eventually leave also.

 

Anyways, back to the topic: anyone still instrested in my proposal?

 

 

Best Regards,

Jewon Lee

CFI/II/MEI/AGI/IGI

 

Incheon vACC

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Mr. Hsu,

 

Well, first of all, I am not sure that VATPRC is actually recognized by the VATSIM network as a division. You may want to be a little careful what you call yourself.

 

Back to the point:

 

I don't care if you are Chinese or Japanese.

 

This is an effort to desperately increase VATKOR's traffic count and also VATASIA's one.

 

One thing, however, you may already know that VATKOR has a close tie with VATROC also. I have heard lots of things regarding your side and VATROC side. VATKOR would like to accept your offer strictly based on one condition: People's Republic of China ACC and VATROC shall coordinate with each other regarding a current on-going relationship and define what their stance is when holding an event with us, VATKOR.

 

The reason I am asking this is that VATKOR does not intend to hurt any relationship with VATROC nor VATASIA staff members who are mainly from Hong Kong vACC and VATROC, in order to create a new relationship.

 

 

Best Regards,

Mr. Lee, VATPRC does not consider itself as an official division, as you can see on our website.

 

Otherwise, at this moment I am being told that by showing any type of affiliation with VATROC, we are acknowledging that Taiwan is an independent country contrary to it being considered a part of the People's Republic of China. I am being told that the Chinese government consideres VATPRC to be an entity representing the People's Republic of China because of the name, despite efforts to nullify any affiliation. Furthermore, the development team and some other individuals with VATSIM are concerned that if we fall under the Chinese government's definition of supporting and/or acknowledging Taiwan, which calls itself the Republic of China, the Chinese government is justified to take action against us. This action could, and probably would include blocking our domain, and most likely the VATSIM domain using their gigantic firewall system, resulting in a blackout to anyone in China attempting to access the website(s).

 

What I said regarding cooperation was a suggestion, not an offer. I did not mean for you to take it that way, as I do not have any authority to make such an offer. I can say one thing, we would love to talk after VATPRC is officially recognized.

 

Best Regards,

Jay Hsu

Jay Hsu

ZME ARTCC

VATPRC Resource Manager

http://www.vatprc.net

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In Korea, for instance, there are many small Korean websites that Koreans can join there and fly with other people.

 

Why don't they take VATSIM into their account..? Is it just because VATSIM is in English and they just don't fit with it....?

 

I definitely think that to grow traffics in Korea region, VATKOR need to co-operate with other regions too not only with closer countries (eg. Japan, Hongkong, Taiwan...)

 

 

What you stated regarding the language barrier is an issue that the development of VATPRC is facing. We are letting IVAO take all the traffic and the controllers, simply because IVAO requires controllers to use Chinese and English. If we required Chinese, foreign controllers would not be able to control. Domestic traffic would all go to IVAO if we just had English controllers (Chinese pilots prefer to speak Chinese). Am I wrong in [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming VATKOR lacks domestic traffic due to this reason? I know VATKOR requires only English, and not Korean. Let me know.

Jay Hsu

ZME ARTCC

VATPRC Resource Manager

http://www.vatprc.net

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Mr. Hsu,

 

First of all, Mr. Han, you are right. I somehow misunderstood your comment. Think it as how I see what's really wrong in the division. As I said before in the last post, I don't think it's not just because we have so little number of controllers. The problem lies deeper than that I believe.

 

Second of all, I did not intend to be aggressive on ya. I just wanted to make this dicussion short, sweet, and, straight-to-the-point. Frankly, I don't care if you are chinese or taiwanese. You all are same controllers and pilots to me and other Koreans.

 

What I am really concerned about is you and VATROC's current stance in VATSIM. It looks like that you and other mainland Chinese people are very careful about coping with VATROC due to the political reason. It almost seems that you guys can actually legally charged against. Simply, VATKOR does not want to be involved in that kind of sensitive political issues.

 

Surely, when we deal with you guys for VATASIA events, we would deal with VATROC people also. That would most likely trigger some sensitive political issues to explode. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT SITUATION.

 

That's all. As long as you guys figure out what to do with each other, I don't care. As I said before, you guys are all same to me.

 

 

Third and the last, yes, the Korean language can be very effective when dealing with controlling domestic traffic. However, the reason we are strictly dealing with them in English is due to the safety issue. More specifically, a Situational Awareness. If two languages are being used in one system, most likely foreign pilots would not be able to understand what is going on around them. Same thing for domestic pilots. Even though there is very slight chance of an accident or incident actually happening, even experienced controllers still can mess up. By using two languages, you are removing one more safety guard in case of that screw-up.

 

 

Best Regards,

Edited by Guest

Jewon Lee

CFI/II/MEI/AGI/IGI

 

Incheon vACC

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Roge.

 

But really, do you think you guys can work things out with VATROC within the network?

 

Not being sarcastic but really, out of curiosity and interest in a possible new division of VATASIA.

 

I'm sure we'll come to a mutual conclusion in the end. Much more planning and discussion is required though. Right now theres just so much red tape to cut through with copyrights on charts, then retainment of controllers, increasing traffic, website setbacks, etc. Not easy.

Jay Hsu

ZME ARTCC

VATPRC Resource Manager

http://www.vatprc.net

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Mr Lee:

 

Like Mr. Hsu mentioned previously, VATPRC is NOT yet an official division or being recognised by VATSIM, but construction is underway. And turmoils we are facing have been mostly listed by Mr. Hsu. Unprepared obstacle will strike at any time, but we shall deal with it accordingly.

 

As for working with VATROC, political issues will always be inplace, but as a aviation community, we are recognising that they are a different division/vACC, same with the Hong Kong vACC. But we cannot recognise them as a country. In realife, same conditions apply; in realife aviation, Taiwan is on their own, they have different procedures as China, different rules and regulations and even different phraseology. Hong Kong also have a different set of rules.

 

As for coordination between VATROC and us, that will happen I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you. A member of VATPRC takes care of events and flyin and group flights, he was talking to one of the Taiwan supervisors or instructors about organising an event. And another member also discussed with another VATROC member about another event. It seems VATROC are keen to do events/flyin/group flights with us and Mr. Lee, I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you, VATPRC will have the same desire.

 

After all, VATSIM is an international community of aviation enthusiasts, therefore it's just our duty to coordinate with fellow divisions and vACCs.

 

Regards

Brendan Chen

Brendan Chen

VATPRC Tech Support

You make the difference!

672A68079898-1_zps98cef54d.png

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  • 4 weeks later...

As a pilot who flies lots and lots, I would very much like to see more presence in Asia. I like the idea of having regular events to showcase KOR and JPN. Also, we should coordinate with HK and the Philippines for this.

 

Let us ALL know when Asia comes alive.

 

Regards

TOM SOLON

VATSIM NETWORK SUPERVISOR

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  • 1 year later...

I've contacted GroupFlight to plan an event from RJCH to RKSI somewhere around May and ChiBoo, Song is aware of the event I'm planning. I'll post information about the event as soon as I'm done with the mid-term exams at school and when we have chosen specific time and ATC positions(time would likely be around 0000z-0200z). I would like to be some help to both VATJPN and VATKOR.

UAL5861.gif

VATKOR Division

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I've contacted GroupFlight to plan an event from RJCH to RKSI somewhere around May and ChiBoo, Song is aware of the event I'm planning. I'll post information about the event as soon as I'm done with the mid-term exams at school and when we have chosen specific time and ATC positions(time would likely be around 0000z-0200z). I would like to be some help to both VATJPN and VATKOR.

 

Have you email or contact VATJPN or VATKOR directly for this?

 

Regards,

William Woo

VATSIM Asia RD

William Woo

VATSIM - Asia Region Director

http://www.vatasia.net

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Dear Juhyun Park

 

We had not ever been asked from VATKOR about this EVENT.

Please consult us beforehand if you need the controllers.

It will be certain if that contacts from the VATKOR staff us.

 

 

I am recruiting controllers.

However, we cannot promise to arrange the air traffic controllers,Because our convenience is bad at the date.

 

Regards,

Yamane,Keisuke /811527

VATJPN1offline.gif

http://www.youtube.com/user/VATJPN

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Dear Mr. Yamane.

Thank you for your cooperation. Although I thought I already sent a message to you about the event. The information about the event is right below this topic. Thank you!! Further information needed please contact me via the message.

 

Kind regards,

Juhyun Park

UAL5861.gif

VATKOR Division

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