Late ATC

[Neil McGuire 955603]

This has happened twice now, and it is a problem. I get on VATSIM/Squawkbox with no ATC in the area. File plan, get on unicomm, make announcements, takeoff, fly to within 10 miles of destination when a controller comes online and tells me to contact him. From that point I have had very frustrating experiences with ATC these 2 flights.

 

Why can't a controller just be hands off those on final arrival when they come online? I was doing fine before the controller changed everything at the last minute. The first flight ended in failure; the second I declared a missed approach, then got vectored into the airport, but it was not fun. I have flown other times and have had a great time, but ATC did not change everything at the last minute.

 

How about a little consideration at 250 knots? ':x'

 

Neil McGuire

[Kevin Noe 895858]

well what are you doing 250 on a 10 mile final anyways ?

[Craig Moulton]

You'll find that it is a problem normally with NEW controllers who still have a thirst for "power". Veteran controllers normally won't bother with you in such cases. However, having said that, this network is about real people doing real ATC. If you don't want the ATC, then don't fly online.

[Norm Hare 907837]

Sounds like a reasonable request too me. Hopefully a SUP or two will chime in on this one.

[Richard Green 810012]

Sounds like a reasonable request too me. Hopefully a SUP or two will chime in on this one.

 

Well as a SUP I would say, that once a controller comes online. You are bound to follow his instructions or disconnect.

 

But I would have to echo the other comments:

1. Why are you flying 250 kias on finals? (Yes, bathroom is a valid response)

2. If you don't want to worry about a controller telling you what to do, your best bet would be

 

That being said...

If I came online and saw someone on finals, I would just let them land. No reason for them to contact me if they made it that far. Now, if they were still 20 miles out, then thats a bit different, as I could very possibly be setting up flight operations in a way counter to how you the pilot had intended to land.

 

Lastly Neil... if it was the same controller perhaps a posting in their forums or an email to the FIR Director/ATM would be of use.

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

In this situation, I normally allow the person to land. If they are 20 nm out or something, I'll ask them which approach they're on and let them continue unless there is conflicting traffic.

[Jo Keeler 892070]

I agree with Richard and Nathan. Remember "aviate, navigate, communicate".

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Same.

 

When I plug in, I scan the airspace quickly and check my "red zones" (to use a supermarket term). These are:

 

Ground Movement (I look however scantily at whether aircraft appear to be moving on the ground at any airports. This tells me someone is probably getting ready to depart.)

Arrival Operations

Any other aircraft descending

 

Then I check my yellow zone:

 

Other controllers online

 

And the green zones:

 

Aircraft that are apparently enroute, the least important being ones near my borders heading out (since it is unlikely I'll be able to get ahold of them in time, my neighbor might as well pick them up himself, or if it's uncontrolled it's completely pointless).

 

By red, yellow, and green zone, I mean the most and least important areas I'll need to worry about first. After [Mod - Happy Thoughts]essing the aircraft, I might HOME an enroute aircraft or two. If I see arriving aircraft more than 20 flying miles from the airport, I'll HOME them first. I'll let aircraft on runways takeoff/land before HOME-ing them.

 

If I see aircraft on final or very near final, I'll let them go. So long as the aircraft appear safe, there's no reason to bother them. Let them land, and even taxi to parking if there's no other aircraft. If they see you come online and go out of their way to contact you, then that's their perogitive.

 

I only regulate departures that I gave clearance/movement approval to after I logged in. If someone was already there moving, I let them go. For arrivals, if they are more than 20 miles from the airport, they will have time to adjust their instruments/charts for what I need, if I need something. If less than 20, then you should probably just let them go, or [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist them to the runway they were planning on. Many times I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist them to their chosen runway anyways, if they are already past the STAR waypoint or last filed fix.

[Dean Hoover 917799]

Just my 2 cents, here.

 

I've seen replies to his post asking 'why 250 knots?' 250 knots has nothing to do with the question he asked.

 

So he likes to test the aircraft tires when he lands... so what?

 

The issue is that ATC came online and pinged him within 10 miles of landing.

 

This happens more times than we want to admit, and it needs to be said that the controller is wrong; not the pilot.

 

I've noticed that 'just log off' and 'just DISCONNECT' are used a lot lately on this forum. We are creating an unwritten policy of pushing people off VATSIM.

 

We control to work traffic. If noone wants to be around us when we control. what then folks?

 

Positive training of new controllers, and respect to all the various levels of virtual pilots should be the key to any success to VATSIM, and this awesome hobby.

 

Dean Hoover

Controller-1 / ZLC (Salt Lake) ARTCC

[Richard Green 810012]

 

I've seen replies to his post asking 'why 250 knots?' 250 knots has nothing to do with the question he asked.

So he likes to test the aircraft tires when he lands... so what?

The issue is that ATC came online and pinged him within 10 miles of landing.

 

This happens more times than we want to admit, and it needs to be said that the controller is wrong; not the pilot.

I've noticed that 'just log off' and 'just DISCONNECT' are used a lot lately on this forum. We are creating an unwritten policy of pushing people off VATSIM.

We control to work traffic. If noone wants to be around us when we control. what then folks?

Positive training of new controllers, and respect to all the various levels of virtual pilots should be the key to any success to VATSIM, and this awesome hobby.

 

Dean Hoover

Controller-1 / ZLC (Salt Lake) ARTCC

 

Two points:

1. 240 kias below 10k feet is the speed limit, and on a 10 mile final he should be slowing a lot more than that.

 

2. People fly on VATSIM for ATC and to see other traffic. If pilots are on the last 10 miles of their flight and ATC says something to them, THERE COULD be a reason.... such as:

a. Landing on a bad runways ( winds, out, person p/h at the end of the runway, etc etc etc I could keep going)

b. Safety ( the person is running up the rear of mister "just flying the pattern in my 172: (who CANT do 250 kias))

 

And yes... if a pilot doesn't want to talk to ATC then they have two options, disconnect or talk.

 

If they wern't flying 250 kias then they HAVE TIME to dial in a radio frequency.

 

There are two sides to EVERY story Dean.

[Jo Keeler 892070]

 

I've seen replies to his post asking 'why 250 knots?' 250 knots has nothing to do with the question he asked.

So he likes to test the aircraft tires when he lands... so what?

The issue is that ATC came online and pinged him within 10 miles of landing.

 

This happens more times than we want to admit, and it needs to be said that the controller is wrong; not the pilot.

I've noticed that 'just log off' and 'just DISCONNECT' are used a lot lately on this forum. We are creating an unwritten policy of pushing people off VATSIM.

We control to work traffic. If noone wants to be around us when we control. what then folks?

Positive training of new controllers, and respect to all the various levels of virtual pilots should be the key to any success to VATSIM, and this awesome hobby.

 

Dean Hoover

Controller-1 / ZLC (Salt Lake) ARTCC

 

Two points:

1. 240 kias below 10k feet is the speed limit, and on a 10 mile final he should be slowing a lot more than that.

 

2. People fly on VATSIM for ATC and to see other traffic. If pilots are on the last 10 miles of their flight and ATC says something to them, THERE COULD be a reason.... such as:

a. Landing on a bad runways ( winds, out, person p/h at the end of the runway, etc etc etc I could keep going)

b. Safety ( the person is running up the rear of mister "just flying the pattern in my 172: (who CANT do 250 kias))

 

And yes... if a pilot doesn't want to talk to ATC then they have two options, disconnect or talk.

 

If they wern't flying 250 kias then they HAVE TIME to dial in a radio frequency.

 

There are two sides to EVERY story Dean.

 

Richard, actually it's 250 knots below 10k.

[Dean Hoover 917799]

1. 240 kias below 10k feet is the speed limit, and on a 10 mile final he should be slowing a lot more than that.

 

That's a pilot training thing, but doesn't relate to the post he wrote.

 

2. People fly on VATSIM for ATC and to see other traffic. If pilots are on the last 10 miles of their flight and ATC says something to them, THERE COULD be a reason.... such as:

a. Landing on a bad runways ( winds, out, person p/h at the end of the runway, etc etc etc I could keep going)

b. Safety ( the person is running up the rear of mister "just flying the pattern in my 172: (who CANT do 250 kias))

 

If I'm online, any aircraft that is within 10 miles of me is going to be seen by me. You're right - perhaps there was other traffic. If that was the case, maybe they were using UNICOM to give each other's position.

 

(etc etc etc I could keep going as well)

 

And yes... if a pilot doesn't want to talk to ATC then they have two options, disconnect or talk.

 

It's not a matter of wanting to talk; more a matter of 'you picked a really bad time, is it necessary?'

 

If they wern't flying 250 kias then they HAVE TIME to dial in a radio frequency.

 

Again, pilot training at best.

 

There are two sides to EVERY story Dean.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Dean Hoover

Contoller-1 / ZLC (Salt Lake) ARTCC

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

I prefer 250 to the marker personally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......the middle marker.

[Dan Everette]

.......the middle marker.

 

And landing with the parking brake set, works everytime.

[Richard Green 810012]

.......the middle marker.

 

And landing with the parking brake set, works everytime.

 

OK Dan... someone take will now be around to take away your TOP GUN joystick and Tom Cruise "Ray Bans" .

 

Please do not reply to the people coming to pick them up that the Pattern is Full... it will only make the punishment more grusome.

[Jo Keeler 892070]

The way I like to do it is about 300-350 knts right till the departure end, pull a 5-6G turn, in the turn I like to drop everything and go dirty, fly downwind for a few seconds, then make another 180 back to final, touching down around 155 knts.... works everytime!

 

Give it a try!

[Owen Catherwood 903683]

I prefer 250 to the marker personally.

.......the middle marker.

 

Better not be a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C/D field in the US :p

 

Aircraft speed.

 

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

© No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

[Dan Everette]

Better not be a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C/D field in the US :p

 

Aircraft speed.

 

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

© No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

I think this thread was regarding when there is no ATC online at the time, and then they suddenly appear. So, with regards to the FAR reference above, if nobody is looking.... Ummm, if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around, does my overflying the field at Mach 1 make a sound? (sorry, couldn't resist)

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

Aircraft speed.

 

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

© No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

Thanks for the refresher.

[Andrew Steinberg 939662]

Aircraft speed.

 

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

© No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

Thanks for the refresher.

 

haha like u need it jeff

[Brandon Grchan 925585]

Aircraft speed.

 

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

© No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

Thanks for the refresher.

 

Thats friggen great

[Neil McGuire 955603]

... If you don't want the ATC, then don't fly online.

 

Had I not wanted ATC I would not have been online.

[Neil McGuire 955603]

... I've seen replies to his post asking 'why 250 knots?' 250 knots has nothing to do with the question he asked. ...

 

Thanks Dean, I think you get my problem. 250 knots may not be real accurate, but the fact is that 2 different controllers on 2 different occasions at 2 different aiports really messed up my enjoyment of flying online.

 

For those who think is a valid solution, maybe not doing the would be just as effective, but neither solves the problem.

 

Thanks for all the discussion.

Neil

[Mick McGuire 960484]

Actually guys, the point has been lost in this 250kt speed debate. I was there at both instances as we were flying together. We were going somewhere around 180 knots, so take that out of the picture. I think there may have been one or two planes sitting at the gates which might have caused a controller to come online at the center level, but ATC didn’t communicate with them until long after we were on the ground. FSNavigator showed that nobody was in the immediate area either. Sure, we wanted to be controlled. That’s why we were on VATSIM. We would have loved to have been controlled starting from 20 miles out. However when you've committed yourself, set up the approach got your charts all handy and then all of a sudden be contacted by ATC at the last second and re-directed from 18L to a 18R within a 10 mile radius is pretty annoying. We did consider disconnecting, however we thought to post on the message board and get your thoughts.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

Actually guys, the point has been lost in this 250kt speed debate. I was there at both instances as we were flying together. We were going somewhere around 180 knots, so take that out of the picture. I think there may have been one or two planes sitting at the gates which might have caused a controller to come online at the center level, but ATC didn’t communicate with them until long after we were on the ground. FSNavigator showed that nobody was in the immediate area either. Sure, we wanted to be controlled. That’s why we were on VATSIM. We would have loved to have been controlled starting from 20 miles out. However when you've committed yourself, set up the approach got your charts all handy and then all of a sudden be contacted by ATC at the last second and re-directed from 18L to a 18R within a 10 mile radius is pretty annoying. We did consider disconnecting, however we thought to post on the message board and get your thoughts.

 

As was discussed in a thread earlier regarding a similar situation, you're the virtual "PIC" of the flight, so if ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns you something which you cannot comply with, then you simply say "unable". It is then the controller's responsibility to make other arrangements that will not exceed your workload or experience level.

Edited July 27, 2006 at 03:07 AM by Guest