Taxi to and hold short instructions.

[Chris Gauthier 895085]

Pretty much correct there Jim, except if a controller is calling you "N" first it's because you probably did it yourself first and he wants to maintain consistency to ensure he's got the right aircraft, not because it's your reg number. It would probably or should be corrected in subsequent comms or asked by the controller to have the pilot/you clarify if he or she is able to do so.

 

I know I'm contradictingmyself, but I just remembered I was wrong about this point in my previous post....

 

The leading "N" is not NORMALLY used, but may be, as in the above situations. Additionally, if the controller does not know, forgets, or is too busy to say your a/c type, he/she will just refer to it as "N8154N" vs Cherokee 8154N. I've run into this at PDX_APP and SLE_TWR when they're busy.

 

The other stuff I said still applies.

[Eric Stearns]

Gerry,

Just to nit pick here....you guys have got to please leave out the "N"'s when stating registrations/callsigns. They are not used in radio communications in the US...LOL.

 

Actually it's in the 7110.65..."November" is used all the time in the real world...it is permissible to use "Cessna" or "Gulfstream," etc, but "November" is always correct (and required if type is not used by the pilot first). From 7110.65 2-4-20:

 

a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:

 

REFERENCE-

FAAO 7110.65, Radio Message Format, Para 2-4-8.

FAAO 7110.65, Abbreviated Transmissions, Para 2-4-9.

FAAO 7110.65, Emphasis for Clarity, Para 2-4-15.

FAAO 7110.65, Numbers Usage, Para 2-4-17.

 

1. Civil. State the prefix "November" when establishing initial communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

 

EXAMPLE-

Air traffic controller's initiated call:

 

"November One Two Three Four Golf."

"November One Two Three Four."

 

Responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call:

 

"Jet Commander One Two Three Four Papa."

"Bonanza One Two Three Four Tango."

"Sikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot."

[James McMannamy]

I'm sure this is a regional thing or may go controller to controller (real-life). When flying real-life and talking to ATC whether VFR flight following or under IFR, I always call myself the aircraft type "Cherokee" and the callsign. If the controller is responding right away when I say "Cherokee" they will call me back and say "Cherokee". If they are calling me after not talking to me for a while, for a handoff or something, it's about split whether they call me "Cherokee", "Piper", or "November".

 

I have never been taught not to say "November" in my training, which I've had quite a bit in both the flying and ATC sides of it, which leads me to believe it is more of a regional thing than the standard. While flying around Syracuse, NY, for example (where I did my primary training), the controllers almost always called me "November" even though I referred to myself as "Cessna." Where I'm at now (upper midwest), Minneapolis Center and the few approach controls out here are the basis for this and my previous post.

 

Now if you're calling up a controller under VFR for the first time, you have to tell them your aircraft type, otherwise they will call you back and ask for it; in this case I usually say "Cherokee November 30378" or whatever the aircraft it is. After that "November 378" or "Cherokee 378" or "Piper 378" are all equally correct.

[Sean Reeder 961605]

at LAX a few months ago was switched to tower while taxing bravo

at the time i though it was weird but i guess it is a SOP now

[Jeff Nielson 839877]

Ok, very interesting. So it looks like its authorized but not required if I'm reading it right. Sounds like another case of the FAR Aim's versus the 7110...lol.

 

I can tell you controllers still want your aircraft type, for obvious reasons, so they can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ess performance. It sounds like they may use the N# like when your mother uses your full name, when she's mad at you because you're probably not talking to them...haha.

 

Eric, I've never ever heard a pilot ar ATC in any part of the US use the preceeding "N" in establishing commo though. It looks like it's not required either.

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

Gerry,

Just to nit pick here....you guys have got to please leave out the "N"'s when stating registrations/callsigns. They are not used in radio communications in the US...LOL.

 

Actually it's in the 7110.65..."November" is used all the time in the real world...it is permissible to use "Cessna" or "Gulfstream," etc, but "November" is always correct (and required if type is not used by the pilot first). From 7110.65 2-4-20:

 

a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:

 

REFERENCE-

FAAO 7110.65, Radio Message Format, Para 2-4-8.

FAAO 7110.65, Abbreviated Transmissions, Para 2-4-9.

FAAO 7110.65, Emphasis for Clarity, Para 2-4-15.

FAAO 7110.65, Numbers Usage, Para 2-4-17.

 

1. Civil. State the prefix "November" when establishing initial communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

 

EXAMPLE-

Air traffic controller's initiated call:

 

"November One Two Three Four Golf."

"November One Two Three Four."

 

Responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call:

 

"Jet Commander One Two Three Four Papa."

"Bonanza One Two Three Four Tango."

"Sikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot."

 

Thanks for posting that Eric, Actually that makes perfect sense. True, were taught (and teach) the make/model of the aircraft when known, but when the controller initiates the call, using "November XXX" is completely logical.

 

I think this makes sense because even if the pilot has a flight plan where we could look up the A/C type, it could be possible the pilot filed the wrong A/C type, and we would be wasting our breath trying to initiate contact with "Cherokee 1234X", becasue the pilot is flying a Mooney.

[Eric Stearns]

Eric, I've never ever heard a pilot ar ATC in any part of the US use the preceeding "N" in establishing commo though. It looks like it's not required either.

 

Certainly not required, as long as the type aircraft preceeds the callsign. I heard "November" several times from several different ARTCCs just today.

[Jeff Nielson 839877]

Eric, did you hear that from ARTCC's on VATSIM or real world?

[Eric Stearns]

Eric, did you hear that from ARTCC's on VATSIM or real world?

 

Real world...my (far from scientific) analysis is that center controllers tend to use "November" regularly, terminal controllers almost always use the aircraft type as a prefix. Like others have alluded to, a terminal area controller will generally make more transmissions to an aircraft and so they probably are better able to remember whether a particular aircraft is a Citation or Challenger or Gulfstream, etc. A center controller might only talk to an aircraft once on initial check-in and once (15 minutes later) for a frequency change to the next sector...plus a center controller working a large sector might have 25-30 aircraft on frequency, approach controllers will generally have far fewer. That's just my speculation from observing ATC from a variety of vantage points.

[Phil McCourt 977517]

Getting back to the taxi and hold short topic. In the real world if I was told to Taxi to 6L, cross 6R, that means I am authorized to cross 6R and proceed to 6L. Holding short is understood and does not need to be said. While flying real planes out of KBKL the tower may say "Hold Short" if he has a lot of student pilots in the area. If a controller wants you on the runway he will say " Taxi into position and hold". But there is a new regulation that went in effect this year that does not allow this at Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airports anymore.

 

Phil

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

In the real world if I was told to Taxi to 6L, cross 6R, that means I am authorized to cross 6R and proceed to 6L.

 

And in fact if the controller had used the standard phraseology "Taxi to runway 6 left" you would have still been authorized to cross 6R.

[Pablo Norambuena 857610]

In the real world if I was told to Taxi to 6L, cross 6R, that means I am authorized to cross 6R and proceed to 6L.

 

And in fact if the controller had used the standard phraseology "Taxi to runway 6 left" you would have still been authorized to cross 6R.

 

That is correct. Controllers in the real world sometimes emphasize things. At SFO pilots will hear "Runway 28L, taxi via A F hold short runway 1L" Although never told to hold short 1R, the controller next will say "Cross runway 1L and 1R"

[James McMannamy]

Getting back to the taxi and hold short topic. In the real world if I was told to Taxi to 6L, cross 6R, that means I am authorized to cross 6R and proceed to 6L. Holding short is understood and does not need to be said. While flying real planes out of KBKL the tower may say "Hold Short" if he has a lot of student pilots in the area. If a controller wants you on the runway he will say " Taxi into position and hold". But there is a new regulation that went in effect this year that does not allow this at Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airports anymore.

 

Phil

 

That's not entirely correct . . . I was given a "Position and Hold" 2 weeks ago at a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airport. There are some requirements to be able to do it, though - no longer automatic.

 

If not specifically told to hold short of a runway, you can taxi across all runways (excluding the one in use), but have to hold short of the runway where you will be departing.

Edited August 16, 2006 at 02:28 AM by Guest

[Owen Catherwood 903683]

If not specifically told to hold short of a runway, you can taxi across all runways (including the one in use), but have to hold short of the runway where you will be departing.

 

I think you mean "including the other one(s) in use".

[James McMannamy]

Oops . . . Freudian slip! Meant to type "excluding" . . . nice catch. That's why you should take what you read on here with a grain of salt!

[Todd Cole 857559]

c. Specify the runway for departure, any necessary taxi instructions, and hold short restrictions when an aircraft will be required to hold short of a runway or other points along the taxi route.

 

EXAMPLE-

"Runway Three Six Left, taxi via taxiway Alpha, hold short of taxiway Charlie."

 

EXAMPLE-

"Runway Three Six Left, taxi via taxiway Charlie, hold short of Runway Two Seven Right."

[Craig Moulton]

And the paragraph prior to that one... 7110.65R 3-7-2

 

b. When authorizing an aircraft to taxi to an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned takeoff runway and hold short instructions are not issued, specify the runway preceded by "taxi to," and issue taxi instructions if necessary. This authorizes the aircraft to "cross" all runways/taxiways which the taxi route intersects except the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned takeoff runway. This does not authorize the aircraft to "enter" or "cross" the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned takeoff runway at any point.