RE VATSIM suggested options for adjusting X-Plane rendering

[Dimitris Tzikas 824771]

Is not accetable.. it is 1st time when Vatsim request, hi-end machine from clients in his network..

In real life: the real radar gives 3 pings in second..

Tzikas Dimitris

[Matthew Bartels]

VATSIM is not requiring high end machines. They are requiring that you have your rendering settings in xplane set at a level that won't impact other users. If a users computer can not maintain 20 FPS at the absolute lowest settings in XP11, then that users machine really can't run XP11.

 

Real world radar might update at 3 pings per second, but that's not the point. In those pings, the aircraft is traveling across the ground at the correct rate. This does not happen in cases of xplane slowdown.

 

For example

Aircraft is showing a ground speed of 360kts this means he should be covering 6NM every minute. So the controller is able to plan for that and sequence the aircraft.

In cases of xplane 11 slowdown below 20FPS, that same aircraft is showing 360kts to the controller, but XP11 has automatically slowed the simulation rate down to 1/2 rate. So this aircraft is really only going 180 kts ground speed. Or covering only 3NM every minute when the controller is expecting 6NM a minute. This is why there is a problem, and this is why VATSIM is taking action.

 

It's Laminar's fault for programming X-Plane the way they did to do this. VATSIM has offered solutions for users that will be affected by this change. If these do not work, the the solution is a different simulator which doesn't have this feature.

[Dimitris Tzikas 824771]

VATSIM is not requiring high end machines. They are requiring that you have your rendering settings in xplane set at a level that won't impact other users. If a users computer can not maintain 20 FPS at the absolute lowest settings in XP11, then that users machine really can't run XP11.

 

Real world radar might update at 3 pings per second, but that's not the point. In those pings, the aircraft is traveling across the ground at the correct rate. This does not happen in cases of xplane slowdown.

 

For example

Aircraft is showing a ground speed of 360kts this means he should be covering 6NM every minute. So the controller is able to plan for that and sequence the aircraft.

In cases of xplane 11 slowdown below 20FPS, that same aircraft is showing 360kts to the controller, but XP11 has automatically slowed the simulation rate down to 1/2 rate. So this aircraft is really only going 180 kts ground speed. Or covering only 3NM every minute when the controller is expecting 6NM a minute. This is why there is a problem, and this is why VATSIM is taking action.

 

It's Laminar's fault for programming X-Plane the way they did to do this. VATSIM has offered solutions for users that will be affected by this change. If these do not work, the the solution is a different simulator which doesn't have this feature.

At list you must disable the message on simulator.. it is too annoying

Tzikas Dimitris

[Justin Shannon]

VATSIM is not requiring high end machines. They are requiring that you have your rendering settings in xplane set at a level that won't impact other users. If a users computer can not maintain 20 FPS at the absolute lowest settings in XP11, then that users machine really can't run XP11.

 

Real world radar might update at 3 pings per second, but that's not the point. In those pings, the aircraft is traveling across the ground at the correct rate. This does not happen in cases of xplane slowdown.

 

For example

Aircraft is showing a ground speed of 360kts this means he should be covering 6NM every minute. So the controller is able to plan for that and sequence the aircraft.

In cases of xplane 11 slowdown below 20FPS, that same aircraft is showing 360kts to the controller, but XP11 has automatically slowed the simulation rate down to 1/2 rate. So this aircraft is really only going 180 kts ground speed. Or covering only 3NM every minute when the controller is expecting 6NM a minute. This is why there is a problem, and this is why VATSIM is taking action.

 

It's Laminar's fault for programming X-Plane the way they did to do this. VATSIM has offered solutions for users that will be affected by this change. If these do not work, the the solution is a different simulator which doesn't have this feature.

At list you must disable the message on simulator.. it is too annoying

Tzikas Dimitris

I could remove it, but then users would get angry when they unknowingly get disconnected due to low frame rates. It will stay.

[Dimitris Tzikas 824771]

VATSIM is not requiring high end machines. They are requiring that you have your rendering settings in xplane set at a level that won't impact other users. If a users computer can not maintain 20 FPS at the absolute lowest settings in XP11, then that users machine really can't run XP11.

 

Real world radar might update at 3 pings per second, but that's not the point. In those pings, the aircraft is traveling across the ground at the correct rate. This does not happen in cases of xplane slowdown.

 

For example

Aircraft is showing a ground speed of 360kts this means he should be covering 6NM every minute. So the controller is able to plan for that and sequence the aircraft.

In cases of xplane 11 slowdown below 20FPS, that same aircraft is showing 360kts to the controller, but XP11 has automatically slowed the simulation rate down to 1/2 rate. So this aircraft is really only going 180 kts ground speed. Or covering only 3NM every minute when the controller is expecting 6NM a minute. This is why there is a problem, and this is why VATSIM is taking action.

 

It's Laminar's fault for programming X-Plane the way they did to do this. VATSIM has offered solutions for users that will be affected by this change. If these do not work, the the solution is a different simulator which doesn't have this feature.

At list you must disable the message on simulator.. it is too annoying

Tzikas Dimitris

I could remove it, but then users would get angry when they unknowingly get disconnected due to low frame rates. It will stay.

And an disable check box maybe??? or disable the possition of my aircraft on your radar without disconnect voice when client detects <20 frames antyl frames go up .. it is beter i think ..

[Robert Shearman Jr]

You're not understanding the issue. ATC does not provide service only to you. ATC needs you to be able to keep up with the traffic flow. If you're only going half as fast as you should be / say you are (because your simulation rate automatically adjusted itself when your FPS went low), you are causing a disruption to everyone else in the sector.

[Matthew Bartels]

And an disable check box maybe??? or disable the possition of my aircraft on your radar without disconnect voice when client detects <20 frames antyl frames go up .. it is beter i think ..

 

To be blunt, the 20 FPS limiter will be compulsory and all the clients will have this feature with no ability to opt out. While I understand you feel harmed by this decision, the fact is that more users are harmed by you flying at 1/2 rate or worse due to extended low FPS. When we have multiple users with the same issue during busy times, or when we have multiple aircraft at a critical phase of flight such as on final approach, it makes keeping the aircraft in an orderly sequence, or more importantly separated impossible. This is why we need to implement this.

 

You can‘t be disconnected from the radar scope and still have ATC. How do you expect ATC to provide you with service if they can‘t see you? They can only provide non-radar services in areas where there is no radar.

[Evan Reiter]

This is one of the best VATSIM feature changes I've seen so far. The issue X-Plane pilots with low frames cause ATC, especially during busy events, really can't be overstated. In the past, we have had to hold 20+ airplanes because of one pilot using X-Plane who was moving at 1/8th of the speed of everyone else.

 

There are a number of suggestions for how you can increase your frames or lower settings. If you're an X-Plane pilot affected by the issue, it should be easy enough to follow the recommendations VATSIM has provided so you can fly within the ATC system without negatively impacting other pilots.

[Daniel Dezulier]

Ok Evan, as a controller you are satisfied ... and I am glad to read that !

 

But it seems that some guys, not the main silent part perharp, has some request which might be heard clearly ...

 

As I wrote on other post my feeling is that there are several kind of causes of disturbance for ATC when a place is busy.

In my opinion "X-Plane bashing" is not the best option.

"Poor simmers bashing" is not a good option either.

 

I was disconnected while having 30 to 35 FPS under X-Plane. So perhaps do we have to investigate in another way that just from one end of the line. Try to tell me I lied !

 

If you tweak VATSIM to be given aircraft position, meter by meter, it'll be one big challenge as aircraft position given by simulator are different.

 

Different, between two versions of FSX, different, between FSX and X-Plane.

I am a scenery designer for X-Plane, using real system data for placing runway, to be compatible with FAACIFP and Jeppesen datas.

 

I observed that scenery misplacement often occurred. Under X-Plane, and under FSX also.

As Jeppesen -via Navigraph- places your aircraft where it is supposed to be really, you have some clue for tuning scene position very accurately. X-Plane is not the worst simulators for scenery placement.

Landing on the taxiway where I was waiting for departures happened a lot from guys with a by default FSX scenery.

 

So as we understand you have some things to tell about X-Plane. Why don't you organize a workshop with Laminar ?

There are tweaking for Network rate under X-Plane. Does xPilot and its connectors are perturbed by or perturb X-Plane transmission. Science is based on doubt !!! Never forget that !!!

 

In computing, when something goes bad, it is common to tell that it is other's fault. Often user's fault. It happen, but experience in computing issues (and I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure that I really know what I am talking about) tells things are not that much simple.

 

For the while, I'll uninstall xPilot 1.1.8.0 because this lack of humility and bad treatment applied to poor guys or poor configuration that banish them from network.

 

Why not writing : "FSX/P3D only" ? or "2000USD configuration Only" under VATSIM Title ?

 

I don't know if you realize that is what you did, by all your recent answers : it is called discrimination !

 

If you do that kind of thing in a real company, against real users, I guess you'll be fired. See Boeing ...

We are a community, we need one each other. Why don't we work together. Give us a version with an option and try together to find out the best escape gate !

 

Developers are not as numerous as required to develop and fully test their programs. They need users beta test and users feedback. Don't cut that precious link !

 

We all do agree for a better network, with less issues, it is the lone clever way to go out. But not that price !

So work with users, take user in consideration, don't tell user who report FPS computing mismatch, if they see it ... just accept it might be true !

 

Best regards

 

Daniel

1400805

[Don Desfosse]

Daniel,

 

I don't understand why you are yelling and screaming, and worse, accusing. XPlane's developers made a design decision which prioritizes the sanctity of flight dynamics over an online networked experience. That's their choice, but it has hurt our community. If you don't like Laminar's choice, I would suggest you complain to Laminar and ask THEM to make a design ideology change that is more inclusive.

 

VATSIM made a choice to try to improve the situation for the overall entire network. For XPlane users, VATSIM has provided options (recommended plugins, etc.) to help improve the experience for all. As with most things new, there may be some issues, bugs and growing pains. Rather than yell and scream and accuse, why not use your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion and intelligence to try to help identify potential gaps in the process and work WITH others to help get them fixed.

[Daniel Dezulier]

I am not yelling against Laminar, not at all !

I just asked the fps check to be optional as it has some errors : I experienced disconnection when at 30-35 and up FPS on x-plane.

 

If a less than 20FPS for more than 30 seconds have occurred I guess I would have noticed !

 

I experienced multiple disconnection -re-connection in the same second. So is is a less than one second shot or a 30 second.

We are beta users, why don't you treat us as beta users ?

If there is a fps check activated, the minimum is that it shows its FPS measurement !

Like a light debug mode.

Kicking off on the faith of hidden measures is not acceptable in an open community.

 

I work hard with Laminar to improve their simulator giving them reports when needed. I work hard for the whole X-Plane community building scenery as completes, as accurate, as well placed as possible. I work for VATSIM VA doing liveries. I am not a consumer, just an involved user.

My computer is tuned or tweaked correctly as I have to test my scenery against X-Plane performance.

 

I am not alone to report problems.

We just want to be listened, understood, and as you, as everybody, satisfied ...

We are all in the same plane (boat ?)

[Don Desfosse]

Why not writing : "FSX/P3D only" ? or "2000USD configuration Only" under VATSIM Title ?

I don't know if you realize that is what you did, by all your recent answers : it is called discrimination !

 

Hello, Daniel,

 

My point was that there was a lot of p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate accusations in your post.

 

First and foremost, I would hope that Laminar would be more inclusive to all communities, especially the online network communities, to ensure a better experience for all.

 

In the meantime, I support the idea that the algorithm may not be correct and it may need to be fixed.

 

But the underlying issue is that the current XPlane design slows performance in response to low FPS, and that's unacceptable in a networked environment. My hope and prayer is that they find a better way to respond to low FPS that benefits all, either in single user mode or in networked modes. Only when that improves will all these "band-aids" no longer be needed.

 

Thanks for listening and looking to be part of the solution of the root cause of the issue.

[Nestor Perez]

We just want to be listened, understood, and as you, as everybody, satisfied...

And so it has been (viewtopic.php?f=157&t=80925). Nothing like hearing people suggesting ways of improving it and making us aware of potential bugs, instead of yelling and saying how badly something has been done... right?

[Dan Everette]

As a controller: This has been a seriously needed change for awhile. While it was fun the first couple of times vectoring aircraft around (let's call them X-plane pilots, with issues), it got old, real quick. Especially when one pilot would impact the service of a dozen+ other pilots.

 

As a pilot: I don't see what the issue is. I had problems in the past maintaining 30fps, so I dropped my settings a bit. Was my goal eye-candy, or participating in an air-traffic simulation? I just loaded up my settings, installed the 3jFPS Wizard plugin as recommended in the NOTAM, and did a fairly intense single pilot IFR flight in heavy weather in a light twin. I was never disconnected.

 

To those complaining (who don't want to take the time to consider their impact on other pilots online): Either take the 5 minutes and install a recommended plugin, invest in Cray: A Hewlett-Packard Enterprise Company, or fly offline. Seriously, I'm tired of having to slow down/go-around/do 360's because of your desire to enjoy simulations/eye candy that your machine can't handle. And that's just the pilot side of me (controller side... you cause an issue once like this that's XP related, asking you to disconnect, or enjoy a 90 min hold somewhere).

 

Before the XP vs P3D argument.. It's moot.. I fly both and can manage.

 

Edit: For precision.