Females on Vatsim

[Ross Carlson]

Best to just say neither, if unsure. Like Dace says, it's not part of phraseology anyway.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Wow, that's interesting and it is definitely different from the real world. I normally do not say "sir" or "ma'am", but I hear it relatively often from others on frequency. "Thanks a lot" or "so long" are sufficient, too.

On the other hand, I think it is not a sin to rather (accidently?) say "sir" if you want to be polite. Sometimes we put too much weight on words, me thinks.

[Simon Kelsey]

+1 Andreas. The English language is blameworthy in this regard. Many European languages have genderless personal pronouns, which is really needed in English, but "they" just doesn't do it for me, since that applies in the plural.

 

I've met the use of "she" substituting for "he" but that's just as bad, although it does make a point! However, I don't think the use of "he" or "sir" etc. is a deliberate attempt to belittle females: it's simply a product of a faulty language.

 

This is exactly it, however. Nobody is suggesting that anybody is deliberately trying to exclude or belittle females when they write 'he' in a docomeent: the whole point is that it is an unthinking bias embedded as a result of centuries of male primacy which requires, in some cases, a conscious effort to change.

 

Personally I can't say I've ever really found it that difficult or clunky to use non-specific terms (they/their/pilots/crews/controllers/the controller etc) in docomeents.

 

Sometimes we put too much weight on words, me thinks.

 

Maybe, but I think language is really important. It may seem like a small thing but actually in the wider context it makes a big difference. Why do we tend to use male pronouns instead of female ones in docomeents etc? Not because they are inherently better suited or easier to read than female ones, that's for certain.

 

More to the point: 100% of the women posting in this thread have pretty clearly made the point that to them at least this sort of stuff does matter... and the male response has basically been "well we don't think it's a big deal".

[Andreas Fuchs]

Please do not take offence, but are two members a sufficiently big sample to claim that "all" or "the majority" of current or potential female members do not like the "male dominated language" in our docomeents? And of course it's only men saying that it is not a big deal, because only men know what they think when they read "he" or hear a female voice. The majority do not have a problem with it, we actually welcome everyone and a "he" in a docomeent does not mean that only men can be controllers or pilots.

 

I do not, however, completely oppose re-phrasing docomeents, please don't get me wrong! It has to be done by someone - aren't we short on manpower already, chronically?

 

In English it's rather easy to change docomeents, in other languages it does get a bit more complicated. For example, in German there are separate words for male ("der Pilot) and female pilots ("die Pilotin"), so it's not that simple to just say "let's re-write all manuals", because you'll end up with docomeents that are harder to read of all the duplicates, e.g. "der Pilot/die Pilotin". It's more convenient to just say "der Pilot" for all cases, but it has to be understood that the male version of the word does not mean that there are only male pilots...bloody political correctness.

[Dace Nicmane]

I'd like to add that my overall experience on VATSIM has been good and I haven't experienced any bullying or stalking because of my gender. I've also met some fantastic people here. It can feel a bit like the black sheep though, to be the only female on the frequency wherever I go.

 

As for the he/she matter, I can see the point of view of both sides and I'm rather neutral about it. It's just the "sir" issue that is my pet peeve.

[Andreas Fuchs]

It can feel a bit like the black sheep though, to be the only female on the frequency wherever I go.

Please don't. People are rather interested and positively excited to work with somebody "new" and "different", they don't see anything negative about it.

As for the he/she matter, I can see the point of view of both sides and I'm rather neutral about it. It's just the "sir" issue that is my pet peeve.

Fair enough and then again: I'd rather see it as a botched attempt of courtesy, shrug my shoulders and smile about it. It's just words.

[Simon Kelsey]

No offence taken, Andreas, and equally I hope that you don't feel as though I am having a go at you either or accusing you of anything because I really don't want to come across like that -- we happen to be having a conversation but it's really about a much bigger picture!

 

are two members a sufficiently big sample to claim that "all" or "the majority" of current or potential female members do not like the "male dominated language" in our docomeents?

 

Of course not -- but what I actually said was 100% of the women posting in this thread had raised it . Now, there is certainly a diverse range of opinion out there and everybody has different priorities.

 

However, if I started a thread posing the question "how can we get more real world pilots involved in VATSIM?", for instance, and you and a couple of your colleagues responded with some things which you thought might contribute to putting people off, and my response was "well, thanks, but I'm not really going to listen to anything said because despite the fact that you're speaking from experience which I don't have I don't really think it's a big issue" -- how would you feel?

 

In the same way -- we have a thread asking what we can do to help more females get involved in VATSIM -- when two females then respond giving their thoughts and experiences does it not make more sense to actually listen to that feedback and think about how we might incoroporate it rather than simply say "well thanks but you're really just being a bit sensitive"?

 

we actually welcome everyone and a "he" in a docomeent does not mean that only men can be controllers or pilots.

 

Of course it doesn't -- but the way to think about it is from a community point of view. At the end of the day, VATSIM is a community and by nature all of us tend to be attracted to join communities and be friends with people who look and talk and think like us. There's nothing at all wrong with that -- it's just human nature.

 

However, if you try and place yourself on the outside looking in -- if you're a woman thinking of joining an organisation like VATSIM but:

 

- All the names of everybody involved that you can see are male

- All the docomeentation you can find refers to members as 'he' or 'him'

- Everybody you hear on the radio is male and calls everybody 'sir'

 

...as a collective impression the feeling is likely to be 'well this is a bit of a boys' club, not sure I'll fit in here'. Of course, we know that is not really the case, but the more we can do to make the place feel more open and inclusive the more likely that is to change, and things like moving away from automatically using 'he/him' in docomeents may seem like a small and inconsequential thing but as part of the bigger picture all of these tiny little changes and marginal gains can add up in to a a big shift.

 

I'm not for a moment suggesting that every VATSIM docomeent currently in existence should be immediately torn up and re-written -- of course that would be a silly over-reaction . However, perhaps next time any of us are writing a docomeent, if we come to a point where we are about to write 'he should...' we might have this discussion in mind and think about using either a non-gender-specific term or even mixing it up a bit and using 'her/she' as an alternative (not even necessarily throughout, but one could use both 'him/he' and 'her/she' in equal measure).

 

I do note your point about it being more clunky in other languages which brings back memories of my high school German!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Oh yeah, I did not mean to not have listened to the ladies who luckily/thankfully participated in this discussion, on the contrary.

 

But I think that the underlying problem is that aviation is not a hobby and job for insecure personalities and probably that's what puts lots of potential members off. Probably the same percentage of male and female persons who are interested in this hobby, who then see all the docomeents, videos etc.. But if you have 90% out of 100 interested men not even trying it, you end up with 10. But possibly only 10 girls or ladies in total had a look, so only 1 will remain. Our hobby is very specific and in my company we have a few ladies in the flightdeck, but we are far from equality - and that's not because we are preferring men, it's just who's applying for jobs and you pick the competent ones, regardless of gender.

[Andreas Fuchs]

I forgot to mention in my previous post: a way to improve VATSIM's way of doing business may be having an official PR-video that also features female members in the roles of controllers and pilots, right in the beginning of it. I agree that our female members need better representation and maybe they specifically wish to help in attracting more female members - they will be very welcome.

[Dace Nicmane]

I think Boston Virtual ARTCC had such a video.

 

Edit: I hadn't dreamt this:

 

The Speedbird talking at

must be a girl.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Perfect! What also might help if you ladies live streamed your sessions and did some advertising for it.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

https://twitch.tv/agentb7

[Andreas Fuchs]

Excellent!

[Mike Lehkamp]

To add some more thoughts to this now I have a little more time to sit down and write...

 

Firstly -- I don't for a moment want to sound as though I am criticising the OP, Craig, who raises a very important point. The more diversity we have in our hobby the better -- VATSIM as a whole is better when there are more active members flying and providing ATC services and from that point of view alone it would be silly for the organisation not to be aiming to appeal to 50% of the population who are currently significantly under-represented in our hobby.

 

However, I'm not sure that citing 'realism' as a reason is particularly helpful to that cause! There are many very good reasons why we should be encouraging more girls and women to get involved in the hobby of flight simulation and in VATSIM in particular:

 

Because VATSIM as a whole is a better place when there are more of us.

 

Because diversity of thought and background and input is something which benefits us as an organisation and as a community.

 

Because there are many accomplished female pilots and air traffic controllers who could bring their experience and knowledge to the network and help us all learn something.

 

Because in a world where we are trying to encourage more women to consider a career in STEM subjects such as aviation, air traffic control, engineering etc, just as the experience of being a VATSIM member has encouraged many young men to take up careers in these fields so it would be wonderful if we could play our part to inspire more girls and women to do the same.

 

These are just a few good reasons. However, 'to make it more realistic' implies that the reason we need more women involved is not because it would be a good thing for them, but in order to satiate the desire of men to have a more realistic experience by hearing a female voice!

 

As I said earlier -- I know that Craig did not mean any harm by his post and his heart is very clearly genuinely in the right place, but I do think it goes to prove how much of a challenge we have as a society (way beyond VATSIM) to overcome the way in which women are viewed, talked about and valued, and if we want to change things within our hobby, within VATSIM and in the world at large then we do have to think ever so carefully about the language we use.

 

Liesel also raises some extremely important points about the way in which female pilots and controllers are often treated on the network, and I know that historically this has also been the case when women have raised their heads on flight sim forums in the past. Inappropriate comments, private messages and all the rest of it. Thankfully I think this is slowly starting to change, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

 

Spot on! I have entertained many high school students (accompanied by teachers mind you) , both male & female students, to visit our 757 flight simulator. In today's world, more of the better articulated questions are raised by females. My 2 cents.

 

Michael

[Alistair Thomson]

In today's world, more of the better articulated questions are raised by females. My 2 cents.

That's often the case. It's well established among educationists that, generally, girls mature emotionally earlier, and faster, than boys, and there is a perception that females often reach a higher level of maturity than males. They stop playing with toys at some early stage, whereas us males never quite manage that (speaking personally, of course .

 

[Andrew Ogden]

They stop playing with toys at some early stage, whereas us males never quite manage that (speaking personally, of course .

Our toys just get bigger as we get bigger

[Andreas Fuchs]

I never grew up, I'm a pilot!