FNO to ZDV - Oct. 6 0100z - Aspen reservations required

[Josh Rosard 879188]

VATUSA's Friday Night Ops will be featuring Denver, CO (KDEN) and Aspen, CO (KASE) on Friday, October 6, from 0100z-0400z.

 

Advance notice is being posted because a reservation system is in place for all Aspen arrivals and departures during the event.

 

Only a limited number of slots are available, so to enjoy the beautiful Aspen Rocky Mountain area, reserve your spot ASAP.

 

For reservations as well as Aspen pilot tutorials, please visit denartcc.org/pilots.

[Craig Moulton]

So if someone does not get a reservation, they will not be allowed to depart/arrive Aspen? Just trying to get a handle on things.

[Josh Rosard 879188]

So if someone does not get a reservation, they will not be allowed to depart/arrive Aspen? Just trying to get a handle on things.

 

That's correct. The traffic level needs to be controlled in Aspen as much as possible due to terrain and other safety issues. We may have some cancellations that will result in slots that open up the day of the event. Denver will also be staffed as an alternative.

[Ross Carlson]

I'm curious how you'll handle arrivals that didn't know about the event or the fact that reservations are required ... they just saw all the traffic on ServInfo and decided to fly into the area. Will they be vectored out of the airspace? It almost seems like you could actually increase your workload by having to deal with reservationless pilots.

 

Anyway, I'll definitely be there, with a reservation. I love flying into KASE.

[Jeff Nielson 839877]

Some people are going to get some holds or ground stops....LOL

[Josh Rosard 879188]

I'm curious how you'll handle arrivals that didn't know about the event or the fact that reservations are required ... they just saw all the traffic on ServInfo and decided to fly into the area. Will they be vectored out of the airspace? It almost seems like you could actually increase your workload by having to deal with reservationless pilots.

 

Those who dont't sign up will be fit into Aspen if we determine there is room available (based on how many reservations actually show up), diverted to nearby airports such as Eagle Co., Grand Junction, and Denver, or be put into a hold for a long, long time

[Owen Catherwood 903683]

I'm curious how you'll handle arrivals that didn't know about the event or the fact that reservations are required

 

Probably the same thing that happens to RW pilots who don't see there's a STMP for their arrival airport-"Whenever an unscheduled flight files a flight plan, GAAP [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns it the first open slot that is at or after its sought arrival time. It also makes sure that the airport capacity is not exceeded. "

 

*edit to fix terminology error*

[Ron Priever 819415]

I'm curious how you'll handle arrivals that didn't know about the event or the fact that reservations are required ... they just saw all the traffic on ServInfo and decided to fly into the area. Will they be vectored out of the airspace? It almost seems like you could actually increase your workload by having to deal with reservationless pilots.

 

Those who dont't sign up will be fit into Aspen if we determine there is room available (based on how many reservations actually show up), diverted to nearby airports such as Eagle Co., Grand Junction, and Denver, or be put into a hold for a long, long time

 

So I guess if I want to fly from, say, KSFO-KASE and I dont make a prior reservation, I should plan on loading approx 28,000 lbs of fuel, right??

[Brad Littlejohn]

This sounds like it will be good. Basically any sector with flights going to KASE will need to use flow control, and KASE will need metering. Will this be coordinated via TMU, or intercom between sectors?

 

BL.

[Josh Rosard 879188]

We'd like to use TMU to coordinate with other ARTCCs, and will also have one of our own controllers fill the position of monitoring traffic to make sure we don't run into any internal problems during the event.

[Carlos Perea 934840]

I'm thinking of flying in, but I might be doing so before the fly-in actually starts since I have to get up really early on Saturday morning. I might be arriving around 0000z or so, so will I need a reservation?

[Josh Rosard 879188]

Nope, reservations are for 0100z-0410z only

[John Speranza 908835]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....So, if you get to aspen before someone with a reservation: That's their problem.

 

However, It should be noted, that if you prefile a FP, that's put into the system before a "file and fly" FP, so, the prefiled get priority over the file and fly one.

 

 

(Taken from the FAR's). And, as with everything: ATC is provided on a workload permitting basis. If the workload is too much, you get held, and possibly diverted (up to the PIC, tho).

 

 

However, for airports, reservations are INDEED required. For gate space, etc.,

 

So, it doesn't matter in what order you arrive: You aren't parked if there isn't a reservation. (But, thats logistical, not ATC )

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Josh, I just want to make sure that there is clarification here. I notice a glaring error which could present an issue to both pilots and controllers. On your reservation site, it says:

 

(Note: Large jets are not recommended.)

 

However per Airnav and the FAA's IFR Supplement, there are no restrictions to "LARGE" aircraft, however, there are weight restrictions to the runway.

 

Weight bearing capacity: Single wheel: 80000 lbs

Double wheel: 100000 lbs

Double tandem: 160000 lbs

 

That said, only ATC uses the terms SMALL, LARGE and HEAVY. The definition of Large is as follows:

 

AIRCRAFT CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ES- For the purposes of Wake Turbulence Separation Minima, ATC cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ifies aircraft as Heavy, Large, and Small as follows:

 

a. Heavy- Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

 

b. Large- Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds, maximum certificated takeoff weight, up to 255,000 pounds.

 

c. Small- Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less maximum certificated takeoff weight.

 

(Refer to AIM.)

 

That is found in the Pilot Controller Glossary, pg. A6, in the back of the 7110.65

 

Anything larger than 41,000 lbs. is handled as a Large, or heavy. ATC does't recognize the S+ seen in the back of the 7110.65, since there is no clear definition. With the NOTE you are limiting the aircraft size not by weight, but by catagory, and in effect limiting the Aspen airport to aircraft smaller than a medium size business jet. The only size limitation at Aspen is a wingspan limit of 95 feet which the Gulfstream V AND the Global Express fit in, and both are still within the weight requirements of the runway, and both operate in and out of Aspen. I'm not saying the catagory limitation is right or wrong. If that's how you choose to operate your event, that's your perogative, but make sure that you communicate these restrictions through some sort of NOTAM to get everyone on the same page.

 

Have a great fly-in!

Edited September 20, 2006 at 04:37 PM by Guest

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....So, if you get to aspen before someone with a reservation: That's their problem.

 

However, It should be noted, that if you prefile a FP, that's put into the system before a "file and fly" FP, so, the prefiled get priority over the file and fly one.

 

 

(Taken from the FAR's). And, as with everything: ATC is provided on a workload permitting basis. If the workload is too much, you get held, and possibly diverted (up to the PIC, tho).

 

 

However, for airports, reservations are INDEED required. For gate space, etc.,

 

So, it doesn't matter in what order you arrive: You aren't parked if there isn't a reservation. (But, thats logistical, not ATC )

 

John, not all of this is entirely accurate. ATC really could care less when the flight plan was filed. As long as you're within 2 hours of your departure time, your flight plan is open, and away you go. If you miss your slot, it is ENTIRELY controller discretion as to what your fate will be. As far as priority goes, the only aircraft that ATC is REQUIRED to give priority to are Emergencies, Lifeflights, and A1 (Air Force 1), everyone else is just a customer. And on VATSIM, not even those guys get priority....

 

ATC may not be able to TELL a pilot where he will divert to, but ATC can definitely provide "encouragement". Since VATSIM is a virtual environment, nothing happens to a pilot that makes a dive for the deck after being told he would be diverted. As opposed to the real world, there are the words, "CALL ME WHEN YOU LAND." or, "THE FIZDO WILL BE THERE TO GREET YOUR PLANE." But yes, ATC usually gives the pilot a few options and expects that the pilot picks one of the options.

[John Speranza 908835]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....So, if you get to aspen before someone with a reservation: That's their problem.

 

However, It should be noted, that if you prefile a FP, that's put into the system before a "file and fly" FP, so, the prefiled get priority over the file and fly one.

 

 

(Taken from the FAR's). And, as with everything: ATC is provided on a workload permitting basis. If the workload is too much, you get held, and possibly diverted (up to the PIC, tho).

 

 

However, for airports, reservations are INDEED required. For gate space, etc.,

 

So, it doesn't matter in what order you arrive: You aren't parked if there isn't a reservation. (But, thats logistical, not ATC )

 

John, not all of this is entirely accurate. ATC really could care less when the flight plan was filed. As long as you're within 2 hours of your departure time, your flight plan is open, and away you go. If you miss your slot, it is ENTIRELY controller discretion as to what your fate will be. As far as priority goes, the only aircraft that ATC is REQUIRED to give priority to are Emergencies, Lifeflights, and A1 (Air Force 1), everyone else is just a customer. And on VATSIM, not even those guys get priority....

 

ATC may not be able to TELL a pilot where he will divert to, but ATC can definitely provide "encouragement". Since VATSIM is a virtual environment, nothing happens to a pilot that makes a dive for the deck after being told he would be diverted. As opposed to the real world, there are the words, "CALL ME WHEN YOU LAND." or, "THE FIZDO WILL BE THERE TO GREET YOUR PLANE." But yes, ATC usually gives the pilot a few options and expects that the pilot picks one of the options.

 

Yes, this IS [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you've recieved a clearance...

 

I think I was referring to pre-file processing and PDC, more than when you request your clearance. (Obviously if a FP times out in the computer -- You're out of luck.)

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....So, if you get to aspen before someone with a reservation: That's their problem.

 

However, It should be noted, that if you prefile a FP, that's put into the system before a "file and fly" FP, so, the prefiled get priority over the file and fly one.

 

 

(Taken from the FAR's). And, as with everything: ATC is provided on a workload permitting basis. If the workload is too much, you get held, and possibly diverted (up to the PIC, tho).

 

 

However, for airports, reservations are INDEED required. For gate space, etc.,

 

So, it doesn't matter in what order you arrive: You aren't parked if there isn't a reservation. (But, thats logistical, not ATC )

 

John, not all of this is entirely accurate. ATC really could care less when the flight plan was filed. As long as you're within 2 hours of your departure time, your flight plan is open, and away you go. If you miss your slot, it is ENTIRELY controller discretion as to what your fate will be. As far as priority goes, the only aircraft that ATC is REQUIRED to give priority to are Emergencies, Lifeflights, and A1 (Air Force 1), everyone else is just a customer. And on VATSIM, not even those guys get priority....

 

ATC may not be able to TELL a pilot where he will divert to, but ATC can definitely provide "encouragement". Since VATSIM is a virtual environment, nothing happens to a pilot that makes a dive for the deck after being told he would be diverted. As opposed to the real world, there are the words, "CALL ME WHEN YOU LAND." or, "THE FIZDO WILL BE THERE TO GREET YOUR PLANE." But yes, ATC usually gives the pilot a few options and expects that the pilot picks one of the options.

 

Yes, this IS [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you've recieved a clearance...

 

I think I was referring to pre-file processing and PDC, more than when you request your clearance. (Obviously if a FP times out in the computer -- You're out of luck.)

 

Receiving a clearance has nothing to do with the amount of time a clearance is held open in the system. When you file a flightplan, whether over the phone, or electronically, it is good for 2 hours, post your departure time, period. Whether or not you have a clearance. So if you've filed a 1200z takeoff, if you're not airborne by 0200z, it falls out of the system. The only way to fix that is for the controller to amend the ETD.

 

anyways... sorry to threadjack your post, Josh.

[John Speranza 908835]

Haha -- Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear.

 

I think we're both saying the same thing...So why are we argueing

 

Yes, that's what I was saying.

 

1- When your flightplan is "prefiled" it sits on the ARTCC computer for 2 hours after your DP time. That's the time window when you must recieve clearance - or else it "times out."

 

2- When you prefile (as opposed to a method known as "file and fly"), your flightplan is PROCESSED by the ARTCC computer, and THEN put into the system. That's why you (normally) have to wait 15+ minutes to request clearance after the time you file.

That's all I was talking about... -- (Note, these are examples...as I am not well versed in the systems that the FAA uses to accomplish this -- I am only talking about what I've read in the AIM...)

 

"File & Fly" is normally when you call up FSS (Less than 30 mins before your departure) and relay your FP Info, or when you get a pop-up IFR clearance.

 

I was by no means talking about who gets a clearance first -- Whoever is first to the runway obviously gets the first "Cleared for takeoff" -- I meant it more in terms of FP Processing....

[Robert Henry 859761]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....

Unless there is an STMP in place for the facility at the time; in which case this post is technically out of place considering that an STMP is being implemented for this event. RW: no slot, no clearance - I don't care when you file. Miss your ETA because of weather, equipment issues (engine out), too bad.

[Nate Johns]

Technically, in the real world: ATC is on a first, come, first served basis.....

Unless there is an STMP in place for the facility at the time; in which case this post is technically out of place considering that an STMP is being implemented for this event. RW: no slot, no clearance - I don't care when you file. Miss your ETA because of weather, equipment issues (engine out), too bad.

 

Of course, not all is lost without a reservation. You can most definitely file for one of the many other airports in the area. EGE, RIL, GJT, TEX, LXV, MTJ, or even SBS (if you want to fly in to a GREAT ski town). ASE is the bee's knees for difficult approach, but if you're lookin for ski country ATC, don't stop just because you can't get the slot you want.

 

~Nate

[Jeff Nielson 839877]

TEX is always good for practicing your cliff diving skills

[John Speranza 908835]

Ugh...I give up. Apparently there's an exception to everything.

[Jay Damberg 924539]

If only we could get as much traffic as this post is getting! Hope to see you all there.

[Josh Rosard 879188]

We still have plenty of slots for Aspen - http://www.denartcc.org/pilots

[Jeff Nielson 839877]

I'll be reserving one soon.