Controllers Signing Off before end of Booked Time

[Christopher Trott]

I've noticed this a lot recently and it's getting really annoying to me because I have had now 4 flights where ATC has closed before their booking says they will and, more frustratingly, just before I entered their airspace (I'm talking 2 minutes or less before calling them up). I'm not talking 2 or 3 minutes before their booking time, I'm talking 10-15 minutes early. It's also quite annoying because several time it's been like the whole world shutdown because everyone logged off within a few minutes of each other, hanging pilots out to dry on several occasions, not even telling them they're closing and then the pilots wondering why it got so quiet all of a sudden.

 

Also, why is it that the UK seems to always shut down at 2100 local? Most other areas I've flown in have controllers in the high traffic areas (even if just a high level "Control", "Radar", or "Center" position) until close to 2300 local. I think you guys would do well to try and stay open another hour or two, especially because it gives more US-based pilots time to try and fly with ATC since we can't always be on at 1500 Eastern.

 

Finally, why is the UK so sp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ly populated with controllers on the weekends lately? I've flown after noon local on 3 consecutive weekends out of London or Manchester and not once was there any ATC. That's kinda sad to not have any ATC on weekend afternoons (UK) when a lot of US and European pilots like to fly.

[Ross Carlson]

Now you know why I've never used the booking system. I am not willing to be bound to any particular session duration. When I'm done, I'm done. I make no promises about how long I'll be on.

 

My advice would be to take the booking times as a rough estimate, not as gospel. If you're getting annoyed by a 15 minute variance, I think you're just setting yourself up for continued annoyance.

[Alexandre Geahel 932157]

I'm talking 10-15 minutes early.

 

It's kinda true, I was doing EGLL-OLBA just yesterday when I log in, prepare everything, request clearence .. no answer from TWR he logs off, going to EGLL N APP, same I request clearence .. logs off (and it was a good while before their "closing time") finnaly with London Control who did a fantastic job handling every "left" pilots he got me off the ground in minutes and continued my 4 hours flight.

 

But you cannot blame them, this is a hobby there are priorities, I mean they do this for fun and what if they have something more important to do at home or work. It's not a problem if you leave early without saying goodbye; no worries there is an explination to everything.

 

t's also quite annoying because several time it's been like the whole world shutdown because everyone logged off within a few minutes of each other.

 

I have noticed this two, LFFF, EBBU, EDDL, EDDF, EDDM, LKAA, LOVV, LIMM all shutting down in matter of minutes it surprises me actually but still no worries they do their max. Let's also notice we are lucky to have ATC from those countries, It's not everyday I can be talking to aviation fans. like me from a country I've been once or never on the internet.

 

So from now on, I'll try to come 30minutes before a closing time to be sure to have ATC

 

 

Alex.

[David Saunders 818672]

Christopher, the reason why you dont tend to see CTRs on at the time of night, is usually there is not APP/TWR units on at the major airfields like EGLL or EGKK, so then the traffic levels just get ridiculus, to the point that you cant give the same level of control that you would like to give, unfortunatly in the UK we dont have a dedicated High level only control, so if I log on as LON_CTR then every airfield beneath my airspace is under my control, as you can imagine giving this kind of control can be very busy and sometime very frustrating because pilots dont realise that they can call me for control, so its a matter of trying to give clearances, take off clearance , landing clearances, vectoring for ILS etc to the pilots, under my control, then to try and get the pilots not under my control to call me for a service because they have just taken off from a runway which is totally opposite to the runway that is in use and now heading for the aircraft that i have just cleared to land on, if you get my drift.

 

Airpost under LON_CTR

 

 

EGBB/EGBE/EGKK/EGGW/EGLL/EGSS/EGHI/EGLC

 

these are major airfields, EGLL has roughly 3000 movements a month, EGBB has over 1000 movements a month, EGKK has over 2000 movements a month,

 

This is what we have to contend with, most controller do tend to stay on for there sessions in the UK, but it does seem that 2100z its almost as if someone turns the power off, but I personally do try to stay on to at least 2200Z for US pilots and long haul pilots that are arriving. after that it seems to be the time of pilots that just dont want to do anything that you ask them, this then spoils the whole enjoyment for pilots that do wish control, and tends to just frustrate controllers.

 

Unfortunatly you will find that most LON CTR controllers will just get to a time and say they are logging off and disappera, this is because there tends not to be a slow point in the evening for them to log off, so staying around to get 1 last aircraft can suddenly multiply itself in minutes to 15-20 aircraft.

 

I can only apoligise for the lack of control that you are receiving from the UK, we are trying very hard at the moment to get more CTR controllers.

[Paul Heaney 879309]

I Agree completely with Ross. I work when I can, and for as long as I can. If I want to logoff, I'll logoff. If I want to logon, I'll logon. Check ServInfo, to see if coverage is available, and if your that hard pressed to have some MUST HAVE ATC, then fire off a message to the controller(s) and ask them if they will be there.

 

I won't use the booking system at all. Like I said, I plug in, when I can, and stay as long as I want to.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi,

 

I don't like this trend, shutting down a little bit before the official end of your booked time. If you want to be more flexible why don't you just keep your BOOKING a bit shorter, so you can rather extend your duty than shortening it. Discipline on this is really important otherwise we can forget about booking positions completely and pilots have NO MORE clue where to fly to at all. Please think about it this way as well.

 

Here at VACC-SAG it is not regarded as good taste to "just close when you wish to". We expect people to invest time, at least two hours, usually from 2000LT until 2200LT, preferrebly longer, if they can. Of course, there might be things happen that make you need to disconnect but otherwise we cannot do good ATC for our pilots. We seem to take it a bit more serious

[Neil Dewson-Smyth 813906]

Ever noticed how you think about closing down your ATC station for the night.. and think.

 

"No hang on. There's that one chap about 40nm out of my range who is inbound. I'll hang around for him and give a service".

 

Only to find the pilot logs off and disappears without a word?

 

This is just as frustrating for the controller.

 

The point of this statement is not to direct the finger back at pilots and be defensive. What it is hoped to show is that we all have commitments and we all have situations that may pull us away from the computer earlier than we had planned. If you find it is the same controller time and time again then maybe we can look at it. If it is just unfortunate that you have had a run of bad luck with controllers logging off then that is simply what it is.. a run of bad luck

[Ross Carlson]

Of course, there might be things happen that make you need to disconnect but otherwise we cannot do good ATC for our pilots. We seem to take it a bit more serious

 

I hope you are not implying that those of us that do not employ a booking system don't take our controlling as serious as you. When I'm plugged in, I provide the best service that I can. The fact that I don't advertise a set end time to my shift has zero bearing on the quality of my service or my level of seriousness.

[James Brickell 852953]

It's a give and take. Controllers have no "right" to expect pilots, because even if there are 20 pilots 100nm outside of your airspace, all 20 of those guys have lives that don't involve the internet (unless they also play WoW ). In that same vein, pilots have no "right" to expect controllers to be online. It's nice that we have the booking system, but it should be used as a guideline as to when ATC might be on, not as a rule. If I see one pilot pretty far out, and I only signed up to be on for another 5 minutes, of course I'm going to disconnect. I'm only going to be able to give that pilot about 20 seconds worth of service by the time he gets to my airspace anyway.

 

Andreas, I understand where you're coming from..but I think it's unreasonable to "expect" anything out of controllers. We all have lives offline, and to be quite frank what I do on VATSIM falls a lot lower on the list compared to the things that occupy my offline life. Explains why I haven't been on lately..as Ross/Serio might say, the "Chicken farm" is keeping me busy!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hey Ross,

 

ok, I did not describe it with the best words - English is not my native language, so forgive me.

 

My point is: people here at VACC-SAG usually try to stay online as long as possible and that is usually a minimum of 2 hours in a row. I know that this is not possible for everyone due to real-life reasons, but you can call us nerds, but for many people here VATSIM/vATC is quite an important hobby, maybe their number 1 hobby! Thus they show this kind of committment by staying online as long as possible and not like some people who say "oh, there's no traffic, I will leave again, bye bye". This can be frustrating for pilots as well.

 

The consequence is that I usually plan my flights according to booked ATC in VATBOOK and not by the current online status shown by ServInfo, because I cannot be sure that the controllers will stay online until I have landed at my destination. It has happened to me too often that everyone turned off the lights before I landed, that's frustrating, too.

 

So, my previous post was not about being not "good" in terms of quality. I hope I could make myself a bit clearer now.

[Ross Carlson]

Yes, much clearer, thanks. When I decide to control, I usually connect for at least two hours also, usually closer to three. I don't log off as soon as there is no traffic, but if there is no traffic and it remains dead for quite a while, that's when I usually think about logging off. And then of course I usually log on as a pilot and go fly somewhere that has ATC coverage. Between controlling, flying, and writing software, VATSIM is most definitely my #1 hobby. The only hobby that I enjoy more is real-world flying, but due to the expense, I don't get to do that nearly as much as I participate in VATSIM.

[Dennis Stanek 876522]

When I control, I usually try to be on for 2-3 hours a session. Or, untill a real world obligation forces me to unplug. Being a Professional medical type, sometimes, forces me to cut short a session. Not because I want to, just because *I* have to. Fortuanately, this occurs quite infrequently.

BTW, just wanted to give my thanks for the ATC coverage this weekend in the UK. I flew to Mildenhall and back the following day. All involved were extremley professional and knowedgeable. Not to mention friendly. Thanks my friends!

I do have a question. I was trying to locate charts through a website, and was totally confused as to where I could find airport diagrams, approach plates etc. The one website I chose,(can't remember the URL), the VATSIM linked site, which requires a registration, is kinda ambiguous which selection to make. Where exactly on the site, is the selction for printable charts. TIA

[David Saunders 818672]

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/html/aipad2.htm

 

 

once you have registered, this is a full list of all UK airports

[Christopher Trott]

I kinda let this one get past me (seems the "notify via e-mail of replies" isn't exactly working right since I never got an e-mail).

 

I respect what everyone here says, however I still have to say that it's a bit rude to close ATC without any warning. I monitor ATC for 10-15 minutes before I sign on, and more often than not, the only warning that ATC is signing off is when they inform that they're closing, if any warning at all. In the last 2 days of flying, there have been 4 ATC positions that closed while I was on their frequency. 2 gave no notice and 2 only gave notice when they closed. When I was an active ATC'er, I always tried to give a 5 minute warning at minimum before closing so anyone not in my sector yet would at least know that I was about to close. If I'd put a time in for when I planned to close and I was changing it earlier for whatever reason, I also tried to be sure to change that time as well.

 

I guess again, like I said, it's just a bit frustrating to be so close to coming in and then have everyone disappear on you with little or no notice. I understand that people have lives, but at the same time, since we don't get paid to do what we do, there should also be at least a little courtesy by ATC to give a heads up at least 5 minutes before signing off that they are signing off.

 

To address a couple of things directly -

 

David - I understand what you're talking about and I don't know UK regs all that well, but at VATUSA we have a policy that Center controllers aren't required to provide tower or ground services to unmanned airports. We simply treat them as untowered airports and give the clearance, a release time and/or clearance void time, and then instruct them to contact us at a given altitude. I don't see why this wouldn't work for the UK as well. It may encourage more high-level ATC to stay online because they'll be able to deny tower and ground services to aircraft if the traffic gets to high. I've had more than a few occasions where I've had 20-30 aircraft in my sector and since I was the only one on, I just sent them to advisory once established on the approach and then handled other aircraft.

 

Andreas - I agree with your point. If you do book, book shorter than you expect so that pilots don't expect you on only to find you disappear. We do understand that people have lives, but at the same time, when one books a time, then they should either honor that booking.

 

Neil - I've had that happen a lot of times. That's why I usually PM them and start talking to them a bit early to see if they plan on making the whole flight in online or not. Most pilots will stay online as long as you tell them that you'll be there.

 

James - I don't see any of this as a "rights" issue. It's a "courtesy" issue. Just as it's rude for me to go blasting through your airspace without talking to you, it's also rude for a controller to just sign off without giving at least some notice that you're going to sign off before you publically announced you would.

[Scott Smith 921136]

I've been flying for awhile now, and I can't remember the last time a controller logged off without telling us.

 

The only time they have done it is when they lose the connection.

 

Scott

[Wycliffe Barrett]

As a twr controller who has writtenn time and again about similar situations I feel that an explanation for my logging off two minutes before hand is warranted.

 

When I log on, my shift is normally to 2200z, which I think is late enough, especially if most of the evening has been spent with just a few VFR pilots, nothing wrong with VFR pilots.

 

I continually monitor Servinfo when I'm controlling and I can see exactly who is where and where they are going. I'm pretty sure most other controllers will do the same. I continually push my range out to 195nm just to check if anybody is even close to coming.

 

If I dont see any traffic and there is none on Servinfo then if I have 5 mins to go I will log off.

 

If a pilot comes online at 2000nm from me that extra five mins is not going to make a blind bit of difference to him.

 

As to the booking system in VATSIM UK, I use it then sometimes I don't, the reason is that it's incredibly hard to predict whether pilots actually look at who is booked on.

 

The other thing is when pilots come online perhaps they should check servinfo themselves and look at controllers ATIS. I have gotten into the habit of including my closing time in my ATIS. which i think works, for those who read it.

 

As for the UK shutting down at 2100 well comments have been made above regards that, people work, have lives and also they might want to do something else like Rome Total War for an hour before beddy buys. So comeon lets be alittle easier on us poor old controllers.

 

We're the ones with square eyes stuck in dark oppressive twrs watching green blips. Give us a break we have to see daylight sometimes. (smile)