Picking up IFR in flight?

[Daniel Forslund]

Hi,

Just wanted to check who was "right" in the below situation:

I did my first flight in a long time tonight (CEST) , and planned to leave LOWI (which was under ATC control, TWR). I had filed an IFR since I was unsure about how the clouds would develop, but intended to depart VFR. 

I contacted TWR, declared intentions to depart VFR and requested taxi, but got the reply that I had filed an IFR and had to fly IFR. I stated my intention to pick up the IFR in air but that was declined. I had to refile the plan as VFR before cleared.

I have not begun my IRL PPL training yet, so I am not sure what applies in Europe but in the US I have seen VFR departures with in air IFR pickups all the time. Regardless of whether the airport is under direct ATC control or not.

So, who was "wrong" here? Yours truly or the controller?

Thanks in advance!

[Joshua Jenkins]

As an S2 controller in CZVR I would see no issue with this request. However, as you mentioned procedures may vary from region to region. It’s also possible the controller didn’t fully understand your request as it’s not one that’s made very often. In fact, it may not even be covered in the S2 training material for said FIR.

An alternative solution to this problem would be to file the flight as VFR first and then ask the terminal/enroute controller to switch your flight plan to IFR once you are airborne.

To answer your question directly I don’t think either of you were wrong, but steps could have been taken by both parties to help each other out a little bit.

Anyways that’s just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

[Robert Shearman Jr]

This is just my take on it, so, take everything I say with a grain of salt. And, it's also based on my experience flying virtually in the US, so what I say may not be globally applicable.

I think what you experienced stems from a difference between the way VFR flight plans are handled in the real world versus on VATSIM.  In the real world, in the US at least, VFR flight plans don't get sent to the controllers the same way IFR flight plans do -- but on VATSIM they do.  (For example, when asking for flight following, the realistic way to handle that is to verbally give the controller your aircraft and nav type, destination, and cruise altitude -- rather than having them rely on the VFR plan you put in the system, which a RW controller wouldn't see.)

So on VATSIM controllers get used to seeing VFR aircraft file VFR flight plans, and if they choose to switch to IFR mid-flight, the controller will just edit their plan accordingly.  Alternatively, a pilot might depart VFR with *nothing* filed, then ask for a "pop-up IFR" once airborne.  I don't think it would occur to too many VATSIM pilots to file an IFR flight plan but not activate it immediately when departing.  Certainly the ATC clients aren't set up with that in mind.  And a controller trained to work VATSIM and not in the real world might not understand that this is a possibility. 

Hope that helps. 

Edited September 4, 2020 at 04:38 AM by Robert Shearman Jr

[Christoph Reule]

There's something like a "Zulu flight plan" (i. e. flight rule Z). When you file such a flight plan, and specify where you want to change from VFR to IFR (compulsory), the controller will give an additional clearance in air at this specified point.

Unfortunately, right now, in most (if not all) pilot clients you don't have the possibility to file a Z flight plan (Y would be the other way round, i. e. IFR to VFR). In this case, I would file a VFR flight plan and also specify a point where I want to change to IFR (just like what Robert said above), including the preferred IFR routing thereafter.

Just my 2 cents...

Edited September 4, 2020 at 05:10 AM by Christoph Reule

[Daniel Mckee]

Can one add comments to all flight plans? Maybe that would help where able.

[Michael Krause]

Hi Daniel,

I don't really see an issue with your intial IFR FPL but deciding to depart VFR with later pick-up but it might have been a bit of "what to do with the FPL" which might have led to ATC telling you to re-file VFR. Overall you wouldn't even need a FPL in most cases for VFR but now there is this IFR FPL and you said you wanted a pickup later - so somehow a Z FPL - did you already know when and where to join your original plan?

I personally (on the controller side) would have just switched your FPL to VFR and depending on the circumstances even deleted the route as it would have been unclear what of that route is still valid. This would have had the drawback of you later-on, when actually wanting the pick-up, having to tell me the route again. If you are already able to tell when you want your pick-up I would've just deleted the part until your pick-up point and put a VFR there instead which makes it a Z FPL.

It's something that happens very rarely so I think mainly a question of talking to each other and finding a way that works for both sides - just quickly re-filing VFR shouldn't be a big deal for the pilot as well. 🙂

Cheers
Michael

Edited September 4, 2020 at 05:15 AM by Michael Krause

[Andreas Fuchs]

I agree, the ATCO simply should have changed your FPL from "IFR" to "VFR", 3 mouse-clicks. That's called service. Maybe he was not aware of this possibility.

I hope that we will be able to file Z and Y flightplans in the future. The guys from the not-to-mention network have a good help page about this topic: Flightplan Y Z

[Brad Littlejohn]

I don't think this has changed from when I was heavily controlling, but let me put this out there.

 

For most places (and yes, I know I'm speaking in the US here; other regions, please correct me or chime in with those local procedures), you don't even have to file a flight plan to fly VFR. You could just connect to the network, announce your intentions via unicom (if untowered/uncontrolled) or call up the controller (if the airport is controlled) and tell them that you're wanting to depart VFR. The controller will accommodate if the controller isn't busy. But is a flight plan needed for that? No.

So what does that mean in relation to the situation above? This means that the pilot can still file an IFR flight plan, call up the tower or whoever is controlling the airport he is at, ask to depart VFR, and if conditions are permitting, they'll get it. When airborne, the pilot can then pick up the IFR clearance. 

Not only does that occur in the real world (again, speaking for the US), but also does happen here. I can't count the times I've had to handle pop-up IFR plans, whether they have already been en route and file it while en route, or had previously filed it and wanted to finally pick it up.

Again, I don't know the differences between how it is handled in other regions versus what I am familiar with, but there shouldn't be a reason that someone has to close out of one plan and re-file..

BL.

 

[Daniel Forslund]

Thanks for all the comments!

I would guess the respons I received was due to inexperience on the part of the controller. He was friendly and helpful though and after my refile did not really kick in (not sure why, plan was still listing as IFR for him) he manually changed it to VFR and I could fly as I intended. Turned out I did not need the IFR.

But for the future I now feel more confident that I can indeed file an IFR flight plan but chose not to pick it up and instead depart VFR.

What I am a bit unsure about still is whether I should fetch the flight plan in the client, or leave that for when I actually intend to pick up the IFR? May that have been what confused the controller; that I intended to depart VFR but had fetched an IFR flightplan in vPilot? I am not sure what you see and when on the controller side of things.

One last added question:

IRL if a VFR pilot is worried that he/she might be entering IMC, they can usually pick up an immediate IFR clearance without filing, and get vectors to assist. Is that OK on VATSIM or would I have to file first to request an inflight IFR pick up?

Again - thank you!

 

[Andreas Fuchs]

On VATSIM I'd simply file an "IFR-flightplan" under VFR-rules if you intend to depart VFR.

When you have ATC controlling you, they are supposed to work your IFR-pickup and amend the flight rules in your FPL. If not ATC is around, just re-visit the flightplan form in your pilot client, change from VFR to IFR and submit the FPL again.

[Michael Krause]

Hi Daniel,

additionally there is no "picking up the flight plan in the client" - the only thing you do there is that you copy whatever there is in the system for your callsign into the fields of the flight plan box in the client so you can quickly make small changes and not have to insert all the details again. From ATC side it cannot be seen at all if you do that or not. There simply is a single flight plan in the system for your callsign and if you login with that callsign we see it correlated to the target we see for you as well as in some lists. So even if you depart VFR we still see you with an IFR plan if you filed such a plan. So the best thing is like Andreas wrote - file it as an VFR plan and in case you need it you can switch it to IFR and all the info is already there.

Cheers
Michael

[Robert Shearman Jr]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Forslund said:

IRL if a VFR pilot is worried that he/she might be entering IMC, they can usually pick up an immediate IFR clearance without filing, and get vectors to assist. Is that OK on VATSIM or would I have to file first to request an inflight IFR pick up?

This is what I was referring to earlier, as departing VFR (with or without a "VFR flight plan" in the system) but then later requesting a "pop-up IFR" from the controller.  In the real world as with in VATSIM, the information is given verbally and the controller generates the entry in the flightplan system.  And in the real world as with in VATSIM, this is perfectly acceptable -- controller workload permitting.

[Daniel Forslund]

Thank you! Much appreciated!