Etiquette to prevent blocked transmission?

[Paul Kroeger]

Yesterday I was flying from EDDF and tower was doing clearance and ground as well with lots of pilots on the ground. I got set up, listening to the transmissions, and then sat there for about five minutes or so waiting for a pause in his orders and the other pilots' requests to request clearance for my flight. I did hear a couple of blocked transmissions where two pilots were talking at the same time, and I was specifically trying to avoid that. Finally, I sensed a lull and started talking, only to find when I released my PTT that someone else was talking at the same time. The controller snapped at us: "Blocked again! Come on, guys! Listen!"

There was a gap while both the other guy and I waited for the other to go first. Eventually he did. I sat there for another few minutes until I was sure there was time to request.

I found this uncomfortable. I was trying to do things by the book. Is it acceptable to type my IFR clearance request into vPilot, even though I want to use voice for the rest of the interactions? Then the controller can clear me whenever he has time? Or how should I avoid a similar issue in the future? Also, if I did send a text message requesting clearance, would the controller be able to see that I can send and receive voice and possibly still give me my instructions via radio?

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Paul,

that's how it happens and works in the real world as well, when it is extremely busy. You seemed to have done everything correctly, you tried your best, but if there are too many guys requesting clearance at the same, it is hard to avoid stepping on each other.

You may want to look into CPDLC, more and more ATCOs at VATSIM are offering it at least for PDC (Pre Departure Clearance), so no talking needed for your IFR clearance at all:

I usually do this and I am using the Hoppie "Airborne Client" (chapter 3.2 in the PDF). That's how it looks like during  a VATSIM flight:

PDC request: https://youtu.be/JA-Efqx6-wI?t=332

PDC received: https://youtu.be/JA-Efqx6-wI?t=422

Edited September 27, 2020 at 12:48 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Paul Kroeger]

Thanks, Andreas. That looks very interesting and would indeed simplify the communications, particularly for such mundane tasks as receiving clearance. Is it compatible with MSFS 2020 though?

[Andreas Fuchs]

The Hoppie applications are all standalone programs, they run completely independent from any FS. Hopefully somebody will create a gauge to integrate it into all the aircraft in MSFS.

[Evan Reiter]

Agree with Andreas, sounds like you did everything right.

1 hour ago, Paul Kroeger said:

Is it acceptable to type my IFR clearance request into vPilot, even though I want to use voice for the rest of the interactions? Then the controller can clear me whenever he has time? Or how should I avoid a similar issue in the future? Also, if I did send a text message requesting clearance, would the controller be able to see that I can send and receive voice and possibly still give me my instructions via radio?

Personally, when I'm controlling, I'd rather pilots not do this. Although it seems like it will save you time, the reason you can't get through on frequency is because I'm so busy handling other requests. Now it's almost like you are trying to "cut" the line of people calling on voice. Hard to say where your priority might be. Also, there's a chance I'll miss the instruction and now you're thinking I have your request when I don't. In the scenario when it's super busy, the best thing you can do is double-check your flight plan against any available preferred routes so that when it's your turn for clearance, the transmission is as simple as possible. (You should also be "ready to copy" because chances are I'm going to call you and read the clearance at the first chance I get.)

If you choose to send any text message to a controller, make sure it's a radio message and not a private message. I would highly recommend you specifically identify in your message that you are texting because of the frequency congestion and that you are voice capable: 

"Boston Center, N12345, requesting IFR clearance to (destination) when you have time, full voice capable but the frequency is very busy and I'm having trouble getting through."

[Paul Kroeger]

5 minutes ago, Evan Reiter said:

Personally, when I'm controlling, I'd rather pilots not do this. Although it seems like it will save you time, the reason you can't get through on frequency is because I'm so busy handling other requests.

Good to know! And I wouldn't do it to cut the line, rather to "get in line," so to speak. I don't see how the busy controller would know that I'm there waiting otherwise if I'm not speaking on the radio. But if it causes issues then I guess I just have to wait and hope the controllers don't get frustrated if I do have a blocked call. 😉

Edited September 27, 2020 at 02:20 PM by Paul Kroeger

[Evan Reiter]

Of course, the text thing is just my personal opinion. Other controllers may feel differently. 

There's no reason for ATC to become frustrated because multiple pilots are trying to call at the same time. It happens. You can't control it (just like in real life). At Boston, we try to encourage our controllers to pick out one of the airplanes to avoid multiple blocked transmissions. If I can even discern anything from the two transmissions, I'll try my best to offer priority: 

"I had two on at once, the N-number calling for IFR clearance, say again?"

We all get short-tempered on occasion but you shouldn't be afraid of accidentally stepping on another pilot's transmissions if you've been monitoring the frequency and, by coincidence, started talking at the same time as someone else.

I should add here that one thing to watch out for is "interrupting" a readback. This happens more than it should and can create some frustration (or prompt a bit of a short reply from us). By "interrupting", I mean that ATC has given a pilot an instruction and someone else cuts in before that pilot can reply:

• ATC: "DAL3, turn left heading 360"
• Another pilot: "Boston Center, N19033 requesting direct destination" 

In such a scenario, probably DAL3's readback is stepped on or doesn't happen. ATC would have to re-state the turn instruction to DAL3 and then go back to N19033. It slows everything down and also introduces some risk that DAL3 doesn't ever get the turn instruction. Again, if that happened by coincidence because you couldn't hear DAL3 now that we have range-based audio, no worries. But there are some pilots who seem to think that the 0.5 seconds of dead-time between the ATC's instruction and the pilot's reply is an opening and that's not the case. 

[Paul Kroeger]

Right! I always wait for the read back before saying something myself! 

[Robert Shearman Jr]

If only everyone did!  LOL... 

[Tobias Dammers]

12 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

If only everyone did!  LOL... 

Yeah, oh boy. The sad thing is, those who cut the line will still usually get their clearance before those who wait their turn. Something like:

• KLM123: "Request clearance"
• EHAM_DEL: "KLM123, you are cleared to *blah blah etc.*"
• DLH456: *patiently waits for KLM123 to read back clearance*
• BAW1: "REQUEST CLEARANCE"
• KLM123: *reads back clearance*
• EHAM_DEL: "BAW1, ready to copy?"
• BAW1: "go ahead"
• EHAM_DEL: "BAW1, you are cleared to *blah blah etc.*"
• KLM123: *patiently waits for BAW1 to read back clearance*

And given enough pilots like BAW1, this can go on for quite a while.

[Andreas Fuchs]

It is realistic, it happens in the real world as well, what do you expect? If you are in hurry you will have to use your elbows to get through. And if local ATC uses CPDLC, use the system and request a PDC: it's just 2 mouse-clicks for ATC to verify and reply to your PDC request - it's the best way to "jump the queue of old-fashioned voice-users".

Edited September 28, 2020 at 09:45 AM by Andreas Fuchs

[Kirk Christie]

23 hours ago, Paul Kroeger said:

"Blocked again! Come on, guys! Listen!"

This doesn't help, people have no idea when some one else is going to key the mic, if you key at the same time you cant hear if some one else is talking, so its pointless to say this, it fixes nothing and just makes you look unprofessional
 

21 hours ago, Evan Reiter said:

"I had two on at once, the N-number calling for IFR clearance, say again?"

Far better solution.

[Andreas Fuchs]

27 minutes ago, Kirk Christie said:

if you key at the same time you cant hear if some one else is talking, so its pointless to say this, it fixes nothing and just makes you look unprofessional

While I agree with you in principle, there are evenings where this happens on every second transmission and it's a big test on one's patience.

[Alistair Thomson]

Is it not the case that the first transmission from pilot to ATC should simply be to declare that the pilot has a message? In RW UK, we always opened new communication with ATC by saying, for example, "Glasgow Tower, G-AVUS" then falling silent, waiting for ATC to acknowledge our existence. Other aircraft already in contact with ATC can continue communicating until tower says "G-AVUS, pass your message" or possibly "G-AVUS stand by" which would allow an existing contact to continue. None of this takes up much air time, and ATC can schedule communications by choosing which aircraft to service next, with the "pass your message" transmission.

[Andreas Fuchs]

7 minutes ago, Alistair Thomson said:

Is it not the case that the first transmission from pilot to ATC should simply be to declare that the pilot has a message?

For VFR flights, yes. But not for IFR flights.

[Tobias Dammers]

One thing I want to add: When, as a pilot, you notice that the frequency is busy, it's good form to also scale the agressiveness of your calls by urgency.

Like, say, a controller is handling top-down services from CTR all the way to GND and DEL, and you've just been handed over from an adjacent sector - clearly you don't need to make your call within the next 10 seconds, but for that flight on short final who has been asked to report runway in sight, it could make the difference between a successful landing and a go-around. The controller knows you're coming, they have probably spotted you long before you even got handed over, and if there's anything urgent, they'll go "{your callsign}, are you on frequency" or something - otherwise, you can assume that it's OK to just continue your cruise and wait for a quiet moment to call in. OTOH, if you're the pilot on short final who is really eager to get that landing clearance, proactively keying in at the first chance you get is more appropriate.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

{disregard} 

Edited September 28, 2020 at 10:29 PM by Robert Shearman Jr

[Lauri Uusitalo]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:53 PM, Tobias Dammers said:

One thing I want to add: When, as a pilot, you notice that the frequency is busy, it's good form to also scale the agressiveness of your calls by urgency.

Like, say, a controller is handling top-down services from CTR all the way to GND and DEL, and you've just been handed over from an adjacent sector - clearly you don't need to make your call within the next 10 seconds, but for that flight on short final who has been asked to report runway in sight, it could make the difference between a successful landing and a go-around. The controller knows you're coming, they have probably spotted you long before you even got handed over, and if there's anything urgent, they'll go "{your callsign}, are you on frequency" or something - otherwise, you can assume that it's OK to just continue your cruise and wait for a quiet moment to call in. OTOH, if you're the pilot on short final who is really eager to get that landing clearance, proactively keying in at the first chance you get is more appropriate.

Spot on, it is "nail biting" to have been vectored for ILS but not given approach clearance or on a final with no landing clearance, and someone starts a long winded IFR clearance readback with wrong SID etc. This requires controller to be really on top of things.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

A good controller, skilled at managing his or her frequency, will not necessarily respond to every radio call when it is received, but will give the most pressing instruction to the plane who needs it in the most time-sensitive matter -- then will come back to any others who recently called in. 

Sometimes I'll hear Pilot A call for clearance, but the busy controller will first give an approach clearance to Pilot B.  Before Pilot B can do his readback, Pilot A, confused because the response didn't sound anything like what he expected (and didn't realize it was for someone else), will key up asking for the controller to say again. 

Tl;Dr -- when it's busy, pay extra attention for your callsign, even right after you call in and ordinarily would expect the next message to be for you. 

[Kirk Christie]

Controllers should treat anything in the air with priority over anything on the ground, this is a competency as listed in the GRP, Manages communication priority.

The same rules should apply on unicom but we all not taking off is more important than some one landing.

Edited October 1, 2020 at 05:13 AM by Kirk Christie