Do I have to file SID?

[Jim Harris]

If I plan a route to EGPH from say EGNX I'd use a standard route such as..

N57 POL N601 INPIP1E But in a smaller aircraft or one with dodgy avionics such as the MSFS TBM, I'd prefer to fly to TLA and commence an ILS 24 0r 06 approach. Is this a done thing? I could not figure a way to get off the STAR (INPIP1E) and on to the approach... I know I'd expect vectors if EGPH was manned, but what if it isn't... And what would happen in the real world? Ta. Jim Harris  832078

[Andrea Mazzoni]

On 10/6/2020 at 5:26 PM, Jim Harris said:

If I plan a route to EGPH from say EGNX I'd use a standard route such as..

N57 POL N601 INPIP1E But in a smaller aircraft or one with dodgy avionics such as the MSFS TBM, I'd prefer to fly to TLA and commence an ILS 24 0r 06 approach. Is this a done thing? I could not figure a way to get off the STAR (INPIP1E) and on to the approach... I know I'd expect vectors if EGPH was manned, but what if it isn't... And what would happen in the real world? Ta. Jim Harris  832078

Hello Jim,

this question have different replies. But basically, insert a SID and/or a STAR inside the flight plan it depends more with the local procedures. If you fly in the US, it could be possible insert without problems these data inside the flight plan because there these procedures are the same for all runways of an airport: if it's a SID an initial radar vector to a fix/station then follow a specif path until the first fix of the route, if it's a STAR a specific path for the first descend phase, then radar vector to the runway in use. But in some countries, SID's and STAR's are different for every runway (and if an airport have noise abaitment procedures like my favourite airport, Milano Malpensa, it could be possible that will be available different SID's from the same runway for the same fix) , and in some cases, there aren't a SID and/or a STAR published. This mean that your departure and arrival procedure will be assigned from the ATC. You should check the regulation for every country, but basically, it seem that SID's and STAR's could be insert from the pilot  only in North America, for what I know with my previous experiences as virtual pilot. About what I know in UK is necessary insert only the route because you will receive the departure and arrival procedure from the ATC

Greetings from the Milano Radar guy! 

[Tobias Dammers]

In Europe, you would generally file a flight plan without SID and STAR, but such that the first and last fixes are endpoints for SIDs and STARs; ATC will then assign SIDs and STARs along with your runways (you get the SID and departure runway from Delivery, and the STAR from Center or Approach as you get close to your last enroute waypoint). If your aircraft can't reliably fly STARs, put "NO SID/STAR" in your remarks, and request vectors to final.

That's all assuming there's ATC available throughout; if there's not, what I think most people do is pretend you're being controlled and do what the controller would have made you do, while announcing your intentions on Unicom, insofar as they are of interest to anyone in the area (if in doubt, assume they are). So you'd come in, and you'd check the airport information for the active runway, and then either select a suitable STAR (best guess, really) and fly it, or "vector yourself". If you're not following a STAR, and you want to announce your intentions, you might report your position and expected runway (e.g. "inbound from Southwest, 20 miles out, expecting ILS runway 12"), this should give people enough information to figure out whether a conflict may arise.

[Koen Meier]

There are countries in Europe that prefer to have a sid or star included. I believe Germany is one of them.

[Trevor Hannant]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:26 PM, Jim Harris said:

If I plan a route to EGPH from say EGNX I'd use a standard route such as..

N57 POL N601 INPIP1E But in a smaller aircraft or one with dodgy avionics such as the MSFS TBM, I'd prefer to fly to TLA and commence an ILS 24 0r 06 approach. Is this a done thing? I could not figure a way to get off the STAR (INPIP1E) and on to the approach... I know I'd expect vectors if EGPH was manned, but what if it isn't... And what would happen in the real world? Ta. Jim Harris  832078

Hi Jim.

First thing with that routing is it's missing the initial waypoint where you're looking to join the airways system.   As N57 is the airway, the controller will need to know where you intend to join so that they can allocate the appropriate SID.   For the UK, the best resource is the NATS Standard Route Document (SRD) which can be found in Excel Spreadsheet form on their AIP site here:

Standard Route Document

Looking at NX to PH, you've got a few route options based on levels:

So in the case of departing via the N57, you would add TNT to your flight plan giving:

TNT N57 POL N601 INPIP1E

This would see the controller give you one of the TNT departures to get you on your way.

Regarding the arrival, if it's unmanned you can do what you wish effectively - provided it's not going to interfere with anyone else.   As such, come off NAV and go onto HDG and vector yourself in making sure you communicate briefly and effectively on UNICOM so that anyone else knows what you're doing.   Keeping an eye on VATSpy (or similar) will give you an idea on whether someone is in the area or not - if there appears to be no-one close by - fill your boots!  Take the shortcut and get yourself in.

[Juan Amado]

The answer in Spain: No, you don't. SID and STAR are assigned from ATC. In the case there's no ATC, you should select the appropiate RWY and therefore the SID/STAR.

In a situation with ATC giving you a SID/STAR but it has requierements you don't accomplish, the fraseology is:

ATC: (clearance) (Sid name) Departure...

Pilot: Unable (sid name) due to (reason), request (alternative). e.g. Unable EPAMA2F departure due to RNAV, request contingency departure.

[Luca Melis]

In real life if you create a flight plan and you like you can select a SID or STAR but it is not mandatory.

 

If there is not a SID or a STAR, Air traffic controller will select the best possible option. Even if you select SID or STAR based on the requirements of the situation or change in the wind or runway configuration, an Air traffic controller can change your SID or STAR.

[Liesel Downes]

Keep in mind the NATS SRD is in the name, a standard routes document. You of course can fly non-standard! Depending on traffic it would be entirely possible to file via TLA and arrive into on track EDN from there. See section 3.6 of this document: https://community.vatsim.uk/files/downloads/file/179-edinburgh-egph-vmats-part-2/

 

[Lars Bergmann]

13 hours ago, Luca Melis said:

In real life if you create a flight plan and you like you can select a SID or STAR but it is not mandatory.

As was mentioned before in this thread, that absolutely depends on where you fly from/to. Some places want you to include SIDs/STARs in the flight plan, others don't.

[Andreas Fuchs]

....and don't forget  that this is just a hobby and nobody will his head bitten off if a SID/STAR is filed/omitted. There are more important things that our virtual pilots should really know.

[Luca Melis]

2 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

....and don't forget  that this is just a hobby and nobody will his head bitten off if a SID/STAR is filed/omitted. There are more important things that our virtual pilots should really know.

Yes, I agree if there is no time forget about SID and STAR