Jump to content

Am I free to choose my own STAR for an arrival or are there restrictions?


Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Where are you flying? In Europe you shouldn’t file a STAR - the controller will assign a STAR before you start your descent. In the USA you file the STAR with the flight plan (there are usually standard routes, you don’t just choose a random one) and you can usually expect to fly that STAR.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to give some more details on where you are flying, as rules differs from country to country.

In Denmark you will be given a STAR by the controller (only Copenhagen Kastrup Airport, EKCH, has STARs in Denmark), either a VECTOR STAR (for the lack of a better name)  or a RNAV STAR. Usually vectors are given. You are naturally free to ask for a specific STAR and ATC will try to accomodate you. In EKCH vectors are more common.

In short, you ought to be able to follow ATC instructions and not blindly stick to the filed flight plan - this insures some room for ATC to accomodate the best service to all traffic, but as I said earlier ATC naturally also wants to adhere to your requsts - traffic permitting.

As an example you can have a look at the MONAK arrivals into EKCH. The MONAK 1N arrival is a RNAV STAR from waypoint MONAK to LAMOX (ILS Rwy 22L), while MONAK 2F is a vectored STAR. You can find the charts here and here . Due to the fact that EKCH is very close to Swedish airspace, EKCH Approach actually controls a part of southern Sweden, but it is a tight airspace to maneuver in, so using vectors optimizes the use of the airspace.

So what you are doing "wrong", is stricktly adhere to you flightplan and not give the controller some room 🙂 Be flexible - and we as controllers will also try to be just that for the benefit for us all.

cheers

Torben

Torben Andersen, VACC-SCA Controller (C1)

Link to post
Share on other sites

As STARs can be dependent on the runway, depending on airport, it might be that you are getting different STARS every time you fly.

 

Also it depends on your aircraft (and in real life also on the crew), if it is RNAV capable or not.

 

Example Switzerland: 

LSZH has Runway INdependent STARS, but different RNAV transitions. Thats why we hope you have the RNAV transitions (e.g. GIPOL28 transition --> I think shown as GIP28 on the transition lists in the FMC) already ready for the active Runway (acc. ATIS and DVO-Procedure)

E.g. for BLM2G is an RNAV STAR, BLM2Z is a NON-RNAV STAR. but they can be used for all runways. Then you either get an RNAV transition or vectors to final.

 

LSGG has runway dependent STARS. Because you either have to turn left or right at some point in order to follow the STAR on the downwind and you will then get vectors for the intercept of the ILS (NO turns without ATC instructions!). Special situations can then occur that you get vectored of the STAR for short cuts or due to traffic situation.

spacer.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

STARs can be time-dependent as well. This could be due to a number of factors.

For example, at KLAX, certain STARs, as well as SIDs are used during the late night/early morning hours, for noise abatement. In addition, this also flips the boat for standard operations there. For example, only certain SIDs can be used after 9pm and before 6am local time due to noise abatement. In addition, starting at 12 midnight to 6am, KLAX goes into full on noise abatement (read: suicide) operations, where they will land to the east, but depart to the west (Of course, all of this is dependent on the wind. If over 10kts in any direction, we'll use the proper procedures that align best with the wind). So at that point, both SIDs and STARs are not only runway dependent, but time dependent as well.

 

As far as a service that informs pilots of the active runways, we, as controllers, should be setting up the ATIS for our fields in question, yes? If so, then we should be expressing to the pilot to get the current info from the ATIS and check in with that.

BL.

 

Edited by Brad Littlejohn

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

27

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some context.

The question was asked answered on Discord by the OP, the filed STAR was for a South Flow runway operations at an airport in the USA, the airport however was running a North Flow, which has a different STAR, which is why the OPs STAR was changed. 

Reviewing the arrival weather would give you an indication of what flow an airport may be in when you get there.

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kirk Christie said:

Some context.

The question was asked answered on Discord by the OP, the filed STAR was for a South Flow runway operations at an airport in the USA, the airport however was running a North Flow, which has a different STAR, which is why the OPs STAR was changed. 

Reviewing the arrival weather would give you an indication of what flow an airport may be in when you get there.

However the gist of it is that you ALWAYS need to be prepared to have your STAR changed by ATC. It's standard procedure in Europe to the point that you don't even file one and just rely on ATC to assign it; but even in the US, all sorts of things can happen that cause ATC to amend your flightplan with a different STAR, such as switching runways at your destination.

23.png
Link to post
Share on other sites

Nah. Rule of thumb: US = file with SID / STAR; Europe & Australia = file without SID / STAR; and if you get it wrong, delivery will correct you.

The most important part is you have to be ready to change your SID and/or STAR when asked to do so, so don't expect to necessarily fly exactly what you filed.

23.png
Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay guys, let's take two steps back from our computer screens and try to see the big picture: this is a simulation, a game. ATC is not guaranteed to be active anywhere at any time. So who cares what we file as SID or STAR. We cannot (read: must not) simulate com-radio failures and even in the real world it is a very unlikely thing to happen, because even with failed VHF radios you normally have a mobile phone or even a satellite phone that will help you contact someone to advise and receive further information/instructions. The only thing that I could imagine could happen is that pilots cannot get through to ATC, because it so busy. By all means, file the most probable STARs (if they exist) for all your flights. That's what I do as well, but I never file an SID, because if ATC is active they will change it anyways by either confirming or modifying it. It's a technical thing: even if you file the SID that you will be instructed to follow, ATC will automatically amend your flightplan when assigning the cleared SID. We do not need to tell ATC what SID we want, because they know their airports and they know what SIDs to assign.

So, file your STARs, but SIDs are not necessary. If it gives you peace of mind, include your intended SID, but for me it is a waste of time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

From a VATSIM-ATC perspective in Switzerland, I prefer that there are no SIDs and no STARS are filed. During clearance, I clean the flight plans (route section) in order to prevent problems for the later stations (route preview/tracks shown on the ATC screen). This means I will delete the SIDs and all unnecessary stuff entered in the route section.

 

Saddly, since MSFS2020 this workload increased, because out of some reason sometimes there are also sectors and way too much information entered... Dear pilots: Please do not enter that stuff and check before filing...

 

For situation where we have no ATC, it is irrelevant anyway, because you should announce the SID/STAR on Unicom. (This helps other pilots to estimate your further flight path. But that's another topic...)

spacer.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/28/2020 at 10:21 PM, Kirk Christie said:

Some context.

The question was asked answered on Discord by the OP, the filed STAR was for a South Flow runway operations at an airport in the USA, the airport however was running a North Flow, which has a different STAR, which is why the OPs STAR was changed. 

Reviewing the arrival weather would give you an indication of what flow an airport may be in when you get there.

More context......

So Discord is the "go to" now? Then explain what this forum is about?

Michael

  • Confused 1


 

1.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Never said that discord is the "go to", just said that the person had also ask the question on there. 

No need to explain what the forum is about.

Edited by Kirk Christie
  • Like 2

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...