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50 minutes ago, Ryan Geckler said:

We will very likely be generating them ourselves.

Jeah sure, but who is in charge for that? Gander?

 

Because they will have to be announced somehow. If pilots will be in charge, it results in chaos and also if its only announced to the pilots with slots the same happens...

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  • Board of Governors

The Cross the Pond Team generates them and assigns them to the routes pilots get prior to the event starting.

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Matt Bartels
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Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors

 

 

 

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To add to what Matthew said above, you will get an email with the route and NAT for your booking shortly before the event.

NICK MARINOV
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1 hour ago, Nick Marinov said:

To add to what Matthew said above, you will get an email with the route and NAT for your booking shortly before the event.

For the pilots with booking this is clear. But what about pilots without booking?

 

(I will be controlling, but if we/other pilots don't have this information beforehand, it will become a huge mess due to this added factor and due to the high pilot attendance due to Covid.)

 

Although I know there is the request from Vatsim not to fly transatlantic, if you don't have a slot, but there will be a lot of such traffic, as we know from the last years...

Edited by Florian Hofer
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Pilots without a booking are "strongly encouraged" not to fly transatlantic on the day of the event. It's not so much a request as it is the next best thing short of an outright ban.

It's not technically forbidden, but it might as well: there will be no ATC service in oceanic airspace for non-event traffic; the official answer to pretty much any question about flying CTP without a booking seems to be "just don't".

Please be a good sport about it and respect this; you're not getting any ATC over the ocean anyway, and domestic ATC will probably prioritize event traffic, so what you get is just a lousier version of a transatlantic flight you could make any other day, and you will be "that person" who helps ruin it for everyone.

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5 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Additionally -- if you do happen to want to buck the system and fly transatlantic on CTP day, fly whatever track you want -- because as has been said, there won't be any Oceanic controllers online managing non-event traffic.

No, please don't do that. Even if controllers ignore you, you may still trip people's TCAS, and while there won't be any ATC for you in oceanic airspace, you will still increase workload in the bordering domestic airspaces, especially Shannon.

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9 hours ago, Florian Hofer said:

(I will be controlling, but if we/other pilots don't have this information beforehand, it will become a huge mess due to this added factor and due to the high pilot attendance due to Covid.)

Just to mention it again. It's not for me specific, as I will be part of the ATC team on arrival station, but to have it discussed for pilots without slot.

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How will controlllers know who to "ignore"? With the traffic levels of CTP they just aren't going to cross-check every callsign against huge lists or search remarks for specific comments so how will they know? 

 

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Bill Casey

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19 hours ago, Tobias Dammers said:

 It's not so much a request as it is the next best thing short of an outright ban.

You have a reference for this statement? 

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Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

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16 minutes ago, Kirk Christie said:

You have a reference for this statement? 

If you read between the lines, it should be somewhat clear:

Quote

Therefore, we have decided that we need to focus our Oceanic resources to provide the best service possible, so for this event we are asking you to refrain from flying transatlantic if you do not obtain a slot for the event. We cannot enforce this – because as usual, all VATSIM pilots are welcome to fly where they wish, when they wish. Even so, it is important that our community understands that we will not be able to cater for pilots without a slot in the oceanic airspace, and as such, ATC coverage can not be provided for non-event participants, and pilots flying without an event slot may face extensive delays on the ground and in the air.

It's worded politely, but it basically says "don't fly transatlantic during the event unless you have a slot"; it may not be entirely clear to non-native speakers of English, but this isn't the kind of "asking" where "no" is a socially acceptable answer. "We cannot enforce this, but..." pretty much means that if it *could* be enforced, it probably would. It also suggests that if you choose to ignore this advice, you will not get ATC over the ocean, and in domestic airspace, you will be held indefinitely in order to keep event traffic flowing.

I've also talked to some of the organizers on discord, and essentially the answer to any question regarding flying transatlantic without a slot, even on routes outside the NATtrack system, or at lower or higher flight levels, is "just don't".

They can't ban transatlantic flights without changing VATSIM rules, which is not something anyone should want, so the next best thing is this - stern advice to refrain from it.

There's definitely a bit of cultural friction here - in some cultures, this can be read as "go ahead and fly; we won't provide ATC over the ocean for you, but other than that, no problem", while in others, it's basically a (soft, social) ban, pretty much "we can't punish you if you do it anyway, but if we could, we would".

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1 hour ago, Tobias Dammers said:

If you read between the lines, it should be somewhat clear:

There is no need to read between the lines, the post is black and white and quite simply state's we dont recommend it.

Much like, it is recommended you wear your seat belt when seated on the plane when the sign is not illuminated, its is not a requirement. There is no mention of banning, or changing the rules.

There is no need to try and read into what has been said.

You are entitled to read it any way you want, but passing your beliefs of as a probable situation, when you are not the authority on the subject is somewhat reckless. 

Edited by Kirk Christie
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Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

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Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

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2 hours ago, Tobias Dammers said:

If you read between the lines, it should be somewhat clear:

It's worded politely, but it basically says "don't fly transatlantic during the event unless you have a slot"; it may not be entirely clear to non-native speakers of English, but this isn't the kind of "asking" where "no" is a socially acceptable answer. "We cannot enforce this, but..." pretty much means that if it *could* be enforced, it probably would. It also suggests that if you choose to ignore this advice, you will not get ATC over the ocean, and in domestic airspace, you will be held indefinitely in order to keep event traffic flowing.

I've also talked to some of the organizers on discord, and essentially the answer to any question regarding flying transatlantic without a slot, even on routes outside the NATtrack system, or at lower or higher flight levels, is "just don't".

They can't ban transatlantic flights without changing VATSIM rules, which is not something anyone should want, so the next best thing is this - stern advice to refrain from it.

There's definitely a bit of cultural friction here - in some cultures, this can be read as "go ahead and fly; we won't provide ATC over the ocean for you, but other than that, no problem", while in others, it's basically a (soft, social) ban, pretty much "we can't punish you if you do it anyway, but if we could, we would".

If we read everything between lines and start to enterprete it, we would understand "Start a war" between the "lines" of every "I love you".

 

But what it means with "We can't enforce it" is that in real life you would not be give a IFR/Atlantic clearance and if you still do fly, you most probably would be chassed/escorted by a few fighters.

In the end it is nearly the same problem for departure/Arrival airfields. As it is to be expected that the capacity of those airports is on the limits at least from time to time, which makes all other traffic (even trans-europe or trans-american) too much. But that is something which we will have to face and we have to be able to manage.

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35 minutes ago, Kirk Christie said:

it is recommended you wear your seat belt when seated on the plane when the sign is not illuminated, its is not a requirement

Just to be precise: this may be the case with the airlines you know. There are airlines, for example Lufthansa, who made it a requirement a few years ago. Not an option.

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4 minutes ago, Florian Hofer said:

In the end it is nearly the same problem for departure/Arrival airfields. As it is to be expected that the capacity of those airports is on the limits at least from time to time, which makes all other traffic (even trans-europe or trans-american) too much. But that is something which we will have to face and we have to be able to manage.

To be fair, I have never really experienced any trouble at those airports, even with "too much" traffic. Our ATCOs at VATSIM are really good and they will handle it. I personally cannot remember doing any holding before landing, during CTP events.

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47 minutes ago, Kirk Christie said:

There is no need to read between the lines, the post is black and white and quite simply state's we dont recommend it.

Much like, it is recommended you wear your seat belt when seated on the plane when the sign is not illuminated, its is not a requirement. There is no mention of banning, or changing the rules.

There is no need to try and read into what has been said.

You are entitled to read it any way you want, but passing your beliefs of as a probable situation, when you are not the authority on the subject is somewhat reckless. 

OK, so let me clarify.

This is not just me reading things into it; I have talked to some of the event organizers, and they have explained their stance and why they put that paragraph there.

VATSIM rules and policies do not allow banning or otherwise forbidding users from flying in any airspace at any time; hence, no such attempt is made.

However, previous years have shown that catering for non-event traffic, or even encouraging it, is not sustainable - the situation on the non-event track got completely out of hand in the last edition, and the 700 or so slots that will be provided this time represent the maximum that can be handled with the available controllers and airspace structures. Hence, this edition makes no attempt at facilitating non-event traffic; no ATC will be provided in oceanic airspace, and domestic airspaces may hold non-event traffic as long as it takes, on the ground or in the air. Domestic ATC will be provided to non-event traffic to the degree that is humanly possible and required by VATSIM rules, and that's it.

Still, if 2000 people decide to fly without a slot, that won't be enough to prevent an unmaintainable situation, especially in the Shannon airspace, where most of the event and non-event traffic will leave oceanic airspace, and hence, the event organizers request, in the kindest possible way, that people who don't have a slot don't fly transatlantic during the event. It is not just a statement of facts; it is a request, which is why it says "we ask you to refrain from", and not "we do not recommend".

So far, none of this is my personal opinion; this is just what's been explained to me, and frankly, I don't think it is difficult to infer it from the text as it is written.

What *is* my personal opinion is that when the people who put in the hard work give everyone a fair shot at obtaining a slot, including the promise of giving those who don't get a slot this time priority treatment next time, and urge those who don't get one to refrain from flying, doing it anyway is disrespectful and selfish, as you contribute to making the event too stressful and less enjoyable for those who get to participate, and put future editions of it at risk.

This last bit you are free to disagree on, but the rest is just what it is.

Edited by Tobias Dammers
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10 minutes ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

To be fair, I have never really experienced any trouble at those airports, even with "too much" traffic. Our ATCOs at VATSIM are really good and they will handle it. I personally cannot remember doing any holding before landing, during CTP events.

From what I've gathered, the biggest problem will be the domestic airspaces on the oceanic boundary, especially Shannon, where most of the traffic will be leaving oceanic airspace.

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5 hours ago, Tobias Dammers said:

I've also talked to some of the organizers on discord, and essentially the answer to any question regarding flying transatlantic without a slot, even on routes outside the NATtrack system, or at lower or higher flight levels, is "just don't".

 

I don't disagree with the rationale here, but I need to call attention to the language - there is nothing wrong about discussing policy in Discord, but that doesn't translate into policy unless it is actually formalized and communicated in writing, in advance.

If the spirit of the policy or the feeling of the organizers is somehow in disagreement with the current wording (i.e, the between the lines "just don't" you suggest), please whoever needs to discuss please do, agree and amend the event rules.

Quote

There's definitely a bit of cultural friction here - in some cultures, this can be read as "go ahead and fly; we won't provide ATC over the ocean for you, but other than that, no problem", while in others, it's basically a (soft, social) ban, pretty much "we can't punish you if you do it anyway, but if we could, we would".

I disagree with this one, there is nothing about culture here. My understanding from what I read was that trans-atlantinc flying will be indeed allowed but with the caveat of whoever flies without an assigned slot will be way back at the end of the service queue. It may even mean, I guess, finally getting serviced after the event is already over or having to disconnect/turn back before the crossing if you burn through your fuel reserves while holding for clearance.

Which IMHO would be totally acceptable as long as she/he pilot is not artificially penalized beyond the workload of the moment, and is always treated in a mutually-respectful manner.

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48 minutes ago, Diego Vasquez said:

If the spirit of the policy or the feeling of the organizers is somehow in disagreement with the current wording (i.e, the between the lines "just don't" you suggest), please whoever needs to discuss please do, agree and amend the event rules.

IMO the wording is 100% in line with "please just don't". A firm but kind request not to.

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34 minutes ago, Jason Thompson said:

I can't even find the link for the bookings. Which by know are probably all filled.

When they say they will give priority to ones who have missed out next time, how are they going to do this???. In previous years they have had specific tracks for no slotted traffic, shame they can't do that again.

Jason

Go to https://ctp.vatsim.net/, log in, and there will be a heading "Reservation" in the menu.

The slots aren't filled yet, because the lottery hasn't even started, and there is no limit to the number of people entering the lottery, just how many slots will be allocated. Reservations can be entered and changed until November 4th.

Also read https://vats.im/ctpinfo2020, which explains the new process, the rationale behind it, and why there will not be any non-event support this year.

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