New Pilot; Question About Request from Center

[Daniel Rilschi]

Hello everyone! I'm a new pilot to Vatsim, although initially registering in 2017 I never had the time to learn IFR procedures that were confusing to me, despite having access to PMDG and other pay ware aircraft. Now that I have had time in the mobile simulator sphere in combination with my old time playing FSX, I was able to build a new computer after the announcement of MSFS. Now I play on that. The last few days I've done my first few flights, and I'm slowly getting further each time before disconnecting. Today I was flying in the DA40NG from KMZH to KLVN through ZMP airspace, I was able to get to the descent phase and center asked me to descend to cross a fix at a certain altitude, which I get. But the problem is, this fix was not on my airway. Was I supposed to use the fix as a DME reference from something? Or was I supposed to go direct? A Vatsim controller I am friends with told me I was supposed to go direct, but a real world pilot told me ATC was in the wrong here. I'm not sure what the correct procedure was so I disconnected. Would anyone be able to provide some insight? Thanks!

[Mats Edvin Aaro]

The real world pilot is correct, the controller should not clear you to a waypoint not on your route.

That being said, there might be some FAA regulations allowing the controller to do it, but it's a bit frowned upon either way as it takes you off your route and no a non-standard point away from your flight plan.

In those situations, you can simply ask the controller what he means and he will either correct himself or explain why. 🙂

Welcome to the network!

[Craighton Miller]

Hello ZMP controller here, not the one that controlled you however.

If what you're showing is correct then the controller would be in the wrong in this situation. If they're giving you a fix to cross at an altitude then it has to be in your flight plan or having been re-cleared to that fix. Which it doesn't look to be the case looking at the logged flight strips.

You are more than welcome to challenge a controller on a instruction if you cannot comply, "unable" is such an underused word but a valid and legal one. In this situation you could have said "unable" as you can not comply with an instruction that doesn't match what you've been cleared.

[Michael Krause]

Hi Daniel,

since CTR controllers are covering a rather large area usually I can simple be the case that he thought your planned route was via this waypoint although - so just ask him "waypoint not on my route, do you want me to proceed direct to there?" and he will tell you. The ATC <> pilot cooperation involves a lot of that - cooperation - so if in doubt or something doesn't make sense from your point of view just ask and you will either get an adjusted clearance or very often even some additional explanation.

Cheers
Michael

[Andreas Fuchs]

You were arriving on an airway that did not connect to a STAR to this airport and ATC tried to get you on the GOPHER 1 ARRIVAL via OLLEE. Didn't he issue any instructions regarding this arrival, like "proceed direct OLLEE, join GOPHER ONE arrival, cross OLLEE at 5000 and maintain"?

[Andreas Fuchs]

9 hours ago, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

The real world pilot is correct, the controller should not clear you to a waypoint not on your route.

Yeah, no. ATC can always take you off your filed route, just like in the real world. In Germany, specifically in the Langen area, there's a point called "EDISA" and it is quite useful to provide a shortcut to pilots arriving from Belgian airspace and leaving Langen to the South (Switzerland). By standard, all flightplan routes include a big detour via the Frankfurt area, because of military airspace. When those air force jockeys are on the toilet, or if they are having lunch or if it is past 12pm on a Friday, you can use their airspace, so "direct EDISA" is quite useful and it works in about 50% of cases: one half just complies and the other half questions this point with "cannot find it in my route". Wrong answer: just go there, ask for the next point after EDISA.

Edited November 7, 2020 at 08:05 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Okay but if you're given "cross EDISA at and maintain {...}," but do not have EDISA in your currently cleared route, that's wrong.  The controller would need to clear you direct EDISA (or on a route that includes EDISA) before, or concurrently with, issuing the crossing restriction.  The crossing restriction by itself, if it's for a point that your current cleared route doesn't intersect, makes no sense and should be clarified. 

[Daniel Rilschi]

3 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

You were arriving on an airway that did not connect to a STAR to this airport and ATC tried to get you on the GOPHER 1 ARRIVAL via OLLEE. Didn't he issue any instructions regarding this arrival, like "proceed direct OLLEE, join GOPHER ONE arrival, cross OLLEE at 5000 and maintain"?

Hello Andreas. The controller didn't ask me to go direct or anything, the instruction just included a "Cross at XXX" only from what I remember which is why I was confused and I was not using a STAR in my flight plan either that I was cleared for. Also, that STAR is not authorized for props to my understanding, which I was in a DA40, so I don't think I could fly that.

[Andreas Fuchs]

2 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Okay but if you're given "cross EDISA at and maintain {...}," but do not have EDISA in your currently cleared route, that's wrong.

Of course, especially as we do not have this kind of phraseology here in Europe 😄 Either you are cleared "direct EDISA" or if you have to cross a point at a certain level they'd tell you "proceed direct to ABCDE, when ready descend FLxxx/altitude xxxxx ft to reach ABCDE at level".

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Daniel Rilschi said:

The controller didn't ask me to go direct or anything, the instruction just included a "Cross at XXX" only from what I remember which is why I was confused and I was not using a STAR in my flight plan either that I was cleared for. Also, that STAR is not authorized for props to my understanding, which I was in a DA40, so I don't think I could fly that.

I do agree that the ATC should have cleared you for that STAR if he wanted you to go to and cross OLLEE at the given altitude. The only restriction on the arrival chart that I could find was that the Alexandia Transition is for Turboprops only and the level restrictions at OLLEE are for jets and turboprops only.

[Mike Sweeney]

13 hours ago, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

the controller should not clear you to a waypoint not on your route.
... it's a bit frowned upon either way

fyi: Re-routes are not frowned upon; amended clearances are common.

"Would anyone be able to provide some insight?"
Based on the filed route, KMZH LINDR V218 GEP V505 PRIOR KLVN, which it appears was not amended, pilots should clarify with ATC.
An amended route clearance also needs to include after OLLEE. For example, join GEP1 arrival.
[As Andreas mentions, the expected altitudes are published for jet and turboprop aircraft; (except for AXN transition) nothing precludes single-engine piston aircraft for this arrival.]

Question for Dhruv, Shane, Ryan & co:
For light aircraft on V218 at 10,000, would this have worked for zMP?
"After GEP, direct VYKES, victor-yankee-kilo-echo-sierra, advise when you have Airlake wx and say approach request."
or does ATC need to re-route V218 traffic direct OLLEE, etc.
Any thoughts?

[Andrew Doubleday]

Hey Dan,

I was working Minneapolis Center last night when this occurred. I made a mistake thinking your route took you over OLLEE on V218 - That's entirely on me for not double checking that.  In the future, definitely ask for clarification if your getting an instruction that is contradictory to your cleared routing. See you next time.

Regards,

AJ

[Andrew Doubleday]

2 hours ago, Mike Sweeney said:

Question for Dhruv, Shane, Ryan & co:
For light aircraft on V218 at 10,000, would this have worked for zMP?
"After GEP, direct VYKES, victor-yankee-kilo-echo-sierra, advise when you have Airlake wx and say approach request."
or does ATC need to re-route V218 traffic direct OLLEE, etc.
Any thoughts?

Shouldn't be an issue using the Victor airway for light aircraft, we have to drive into the TRACON at 4,000 or 5,000 (typically depending on direction of flight) for satellite traffic during day-time operations per LOA.

[Jim Rish]

On 11/7/2020 at 8:38 PM, Andrew Doubleday said:

Hey Dan,

I was working Minneapolis Center last night when this occurred.

 

Umm, I don't know. Here's what I would have done. If you would have given the altitude, to whatever fix I didn't have, instead of of disconnecting from VATSIM, which happens enough from my screen freezes alone, while on final,  I would have simply complied and descended at a fairly good rate to the alt. that you gave. Once I got  to flight level, if you don't see something you like in my route, I guess you would just let me know. That's what I would have done anyways. 🤷‍♀️