FP SID STAR changes seem endless

[Robert Vanderkam]

Are there pre-approved routes anyone can access, including SIDs/STARs? I make FPs with the MSFS world map but often get asked if I can change to another SID. Since it's anything but simple unless I do a lot of training (I flew heavies on VATSIM for years in FSX but with a LvlD763 on corporate routes), I've been bailing out at that point so I can think of a way to avoid trying to put in new procedures for clearance or, heaven forbid, approach.

Where does ATC get their routes, and can I use them in order to avoid changes during clearance or flight?

 

 

[Deniz Cagdas]

You could try certain websites, like SimBrief(.com).
There you can generate and export 'ATC-friendly' flight plans (including SIDs/STARs).

Hope this helps 🙂

[Ross Carlson]

I generally pull routes from FlightAware and then review them to be sure the SIDs and STARs are applicable to the time of day that I'm flying.

[Andreas Fuchs]

This would be a direct link to FlightAware's route finder: https://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt

[Robert Vanderkam]

6 hours ago, Deniz Cagdas said:

You could try certain websites, like SimBrief(.com).
There you can generate and export 'ATC-friendly' flight plans (including SIDs/STARs).

Hope this helps 🙂

I assume you mean VATSIM-atc-friendly flight plans. Thanks

[Robert Vanderkam]

6 hours ago, Ross Carlson said:

I generally pull routes from FlightAware and then review them to be sure the SIDs and STARs are applicable to the time of day that I'm flying.

There's different DEP/APP procedures for different times of day. How unsurprising. Sigh....  LOL

[Andreas Fuchs]

That's why it is important to use aircraft with fully programmable FMC or GPS units, otherwise you won't be able to accommodate changes by ATC. I am still waiting for MSFS to become a "real simulator", possibly later this year.

Edited January 5, 2021 at 01:07 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Robert Vanderkam]

As long as everyone is not required to become a "real pilot" in order to play on VATSIM.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Nobody is asking for this, but we are asking for pilots being able to positively control their aircraft and be able to change their FMC/GPSNAV data. In this respect, MSFS is "not there" yet. There are other payware aircraft for other simulators that also would not allow you to insert/change SIDs and STARs, unless you purchase the "professional version". Outrageous. It's like having to pay extra for your car if you want brake lights.

[Tobias Dammers]

IMO, changing routes after the fact is enough of an integral part of normal operations that it's a reasonable demand.

And besides, if you can't comply, then you can file "no SID/STAR" and request vectors. This is a bit unusual for airliners, and you may experience some delays if things are busy, but it's perfectly fine as far as rules go.

In fact, an FMS isn't mandatory at all; what *is* mandatory is being able to fly according to your flight plan - ATC doesn't care *how* you do it, as long as you do it. I have, in fact, flown published (non-RNAV) procedures in a steam-gauge DHC6, doing all the navigation the oldschool way - the workload is higher, but it works just fine. The difference is of course that if you fly an airliner, the *expectation* is that you're using an FMS and automating most of your flying.

[Andreas Fuchs]

20 minutes ago, Tobias Dammers said:

The difference is of course that if you fly an airliner, the *expectation* is that you're using an FMS and automating most of your flying

That's the point I have been trying to make.

[Alex Ying]

If you're flying in the US, the FAA has a preferred route database query that most if not all US facilities on VATSIM follow: https://www.fly.faa.gov/rmt/nfdc_preferred_routes_database.jsp

Some ARTCCs also publish their own copies of the PRD as well.

[Jonas Helkey]

4 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

There are other payware aircraft for other simulators that also would not allow you to insert/change SIDs and STARs, unless you purchase the "professional version". Outrageous. It's like having to pay extra for your car if you want brake lights.

Very sorry to veer off topic here but I just have to pitch in my agreement on this. This is one of the very egregious examples, nevermind the fact that it's often made nice and difficult to know these kinds of limitations before buying so that hopefully you'd go "Ah well, I'll just churn out another 20 bucks for the Pro version to recieve a working product". I haven't been around this hobby for nearly as long as some of you guys, but one of the first experiences you make when buying software for flight simulation is how very easy it is to get straight up scammed with stuff like that. Sadly there aren't that many developers out there who are more upright.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Correct. That's why it is very important to read or scan at least through 2 or 3 reviews for a product. Whenever I spend money, I want to make sure that I don't get scammed.

[Robert Vanderkam]

Well, I appreciate all the replies. But I guess I won't be flying VATSIM as much until I get my training on the MCDU upgraded. I"m not sure how I managed to get 500 hours on the 767 in FSX on VATSIM 10 years ago. I think I must have done a lot of vectoring.

[John Golin]

@Andreas Fuchs 837251 asking for $'s for work they have put in to build an FMS (or scenery, or any  other addons) is not unreasonable at all if they are clear about it in their sales summary.   I want to assume the complaint is that this was not clear in the advertising, rather than complaining they had two pricing tiers for two levels of simulation?

I actually have no idea what addon you are talking about so can't check myself 🙂

 

[Joshua Jenkins]

3 hours ago, Robert Vanderkam said:

Well, I appreciate all the replies. But I guess I won't be flying VATSIM as much until I get my training on the MCDU upgraded. I"m not sure how I managed to get 500 hours on the 767 in FSX on VATSIM 10 years ago. I think I must have done a lot of vectoring.

What aircraft do you primarily fly? All of the airliners in MSFS should have this functionality even if it isn’t perfect. Typically changing SID/STARS is as simple as clicking just a few buttons in the FMS and verifying that the aircraft has done it right by cross checking the charts. I always rebrief the new arrival/departure/approach also but that doesn’t typically take more than a couple minutes to do. As others have said, doing this stuff is just a normal day on the job for your average airline pilot.

[Robert Vanderkam]

21 minutes ago, Josh Jenk said:

What aircraft do you primarily fly? All of the airliners in MSFS should have this functionality even if it isn’t perfect. Typically changing SID/STARS is as simple as clicking just a few buttons in the FMS and verifying that the aircraft has done it right by cross checking the charts. I always rebrief the new arrival/departure/approach also but that doesn’t typically take more than a couple minutes to do. As others have said, doing this stuff is just a normal day on the job for your average airline pilot.

Rebrief?

I fly the FBW A320NX. I have not yet bought any aircraft. (Maybe that's part of the problem?) SIDs are okay, but if I change STARs I find the result is difficult to sort out. It can result in breaks, or spikes that have to be cleaned up but it doesn't always work. MSFS fault? I can't tell yet.

I appreciate the help. But, I'm not a normal pilot. Like I said, I guess I'll back off until I put myself through some additional testing and can confidently deal with changes. Maybe I was less uptight 10 years ago, but this doesn't seem as relaxing. 😉

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Being rerouted can happen for many reasons.  You might have filed something inappropriate for your type of aircraft.  You might have filed something inappropriate for time of day.  Some airports have different STARs depending on whether the winds have them in west ops vs east ops (for example), and that can theoretically change mid-flight even if what you filed was appropriate at the time.  And finally, if one particular arrival stream gets congested, ATC could elect to move some of the traffic over to an adjacent arrival stream. 

All that is to say that changing STARs mid-flight really needs to become something you become comfortable with, eventually, as no amount of experience or pre-flight prep will prevent it. 

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Umm yeah the FBW doesnt handle reroutes well, yet, from what I hear.  At present, the Working Title CJ4 is the only reliable FMS-equipped plane I'm aware of in MSFS2020. 

[Robert Vanderkam]

35 minutes ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Umm yeah the FBW doesnt handle reroutes well, yet, from what I hear.  At present, the Working Title CJ4 is the only reliable FMS-equipped plane I'm aware of in MSFS2020. 

Well, that is what I was wondering all along.

[Joshua Jenkins]

4 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Umm yeah the FBW doesnt handle reroutes well, yet, from what I hear.  At present, the Working Title CJ4 is the only reliable FMS-equipped plane I'm aware of in MSFS2020. 

It’s a heck of a lot better than the default a320 though. I personally haven’t had too many problems with directs and reroutes as long as you are monitoring what the aircraft is doing closely.

4 hours ago, Robert Vanderkam said:

Rebrief?

Yeah. It’s good practice to go over your departure/arrival/approach before you get to it. That includes looking at the charts, going over altitude constraints, frequencies of online controllers, getting the weather, preparing Vspeeds, expected taxi routes etc. If, for example, your approach changes, familiarize yourself with how this affects your flight and the new things that you now need to expect (in other words, re-brief your approach).

[Andreas Fuchs]

12 hours ago, John Golin said:

@Andreas Fuchs 837251 asking for $'s for work they have put in to build an FMS (or scenery, or any  other addons) is not unreasonable at all if they are clear about it in their sales summary.   I want to assume the complaint is that this was not clear in the advertising, rather than complaining they had two pricing tiers for two levels of simulation?

I actually have no idea what addon you are talking about so can't check myself 🙂

I have a different opinion on this. I have not bought the product, because I was made aware of it through forum posts, video streamers and product reviews. I actually could not believe it until I read the product description. Why in the world would you release a detailed addon aircraft for 70 or 80 USD and then not include the possibility to insert SIDs and STARs? I can understand if you charge extra for eye-candy like animated ground equipment or super-duper high quality liveries. But basic functions of a cockpit? Come on, please! One product affected of this is the Flightfactor A350, for example.

[Alistair Thomson]

There seems to be two discussions going on here: the OP's concern about changes to the FP, and the ability of aircraft to facilitate route changes on the hoof. Maybe the latter should be spawned to a separate topic? I'm really interested in the discussion around the original post, and not so much in regards to MSFS and its functionality.

[Lauri Uusitalo]

10 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

There seems to be two discussions going on here: the OP's concern about changes to the FP, and the ability of aircraft to facilitate route changes on the hoof. Maybe the latter should be spawned to a separate topic? I'm really interested in the discussion around the original post, and not so much in regards to MSFS and its functionality.

As I (about) never file a SID/STAR, I have not ran into this. But I use Simbrief which seem to have mostly valid plans. I can not remember a case, where my flight plan had been (radically) modified. I have had the altitude changed and once, on a flight from Madeira to Finland, I made a request to divert to Nice. So I was given a new plan, on my request though.

But if a person has had his SID changed often by the ATC, then I would suggest more work in preparing the plan, not just clicking the waypoints.