HOLDING info on charts (EGKK)

[Marc Sieffert]

Hi, during my last flight from Paris to Gatwick I was asked to hold at Timba. On the chart I could see no info regarding the size of the holding, 1mn, 1,5 mn... In this case we need to ask the Controller for this info, right?

On the holding on May (same chart below) I see the info D1,5 ... This means holding with 1,5 minute I assume, right?

If yes what is then the meaning of the D5.0 just above?

Thanks a lot!!

 

[Koen Meier]

That is a waypoint 1.5dme from may vor when leaving the HOLD.

most holdings have a standard which is prepopulated but can be altered. Most are 1 minute leg holds but the hold can also say 1,5 minutes. 

[Andreas Fuchs]

Basic IFR knowledge: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Holding_Pattern

 

[Tobias Dammers]

18 hours ago, Marc Sieffert said:

On the holding on May (same chart below) I see the info D1,5 ... This means holding with 1,5 minute I assume, right?

No. "D1.5" means "1.5 DME", and defines the point in the MAY holding where you have to turn left in order to leave the holding; it has absolutely nothing to do with the TIMBA holding.

The TIMBA holding is a standard right-hand holding pattern, which means the straight legs are standard 1-minute legs.

[Lenny Colton]

On 3/5/2021 at 5:58 PM, Marc Sieffert said:

Hi, during my last flight from Paris to Gatwick I was asked to hold at Timba. On the chart I could see no info regarding the size of the holding, 1mn, 1,5 mn... In this case we need to ask the Controller for this info, right?

On the holding on May (same chart below) I see the info D1,5 ... This means holding with 1,5 minute I assume, right?

If yes what is then the meaning of the D5.0 just above?

Thanks a lot!!

 

As a controller, I would just like to say: please PLEASE do not use the published initial approach procedures (in the UK) unless specifically issued with a transition or similar. It really makes things difficult for us when more aircraft enter the approach sector than expected!

Holding procedures to be followed are those on the STAR chart. If you reach the end of your STAR (WILLO/TIMBA in this case - though this applies to all UK airports) and have not received further instructions, you should hold as published, until advised. We generally remind you to hold, but you should still hold in this situation, even if we haven't specifically said so.

At most UK airports, you will receive vectors from the end of the STAR. The only exceptions are London City, London Biggin Hill, and sometimes Newcastle or Glasgow Prestwick (both transitions and vectoring may be used). At these airports, you should still hold until you have been cleared for (not just assigned) a transition routing.

We do not use the chart which you posted in normal operation. Those procedures are published for many UK airports, but are only used if the radar fails. They do not separate aircraft from TIMBA and WILLO, and take them outside of controlled airspace. They are designed to be used by one aircraft at a time in extreme circumstances only.

The TIMBA hold is right turns, inbound course 308 magnetic, 1 minute legs (FL70-FL140) or 1.5 minute legs (FL150+).

The WILLO hold is left turns, inbound course 284 magnetic, 5.1 NM legs, entry via HOLLY on the first loop only.

The holding speed in the London TMA is 220 KIAS or less (FL140-) or as published by ICAO (FL150+).

[Andreas Fuchs]

11 hours ago, Lenny Colton said:

The holding speed in the London TMA is 220 KIAS or less (FL140-)

....but if the minimum clean speed of your aircraft is higher than 220 KIAS, simply seek ATC-approval for a higher than normal holding speed. The last thing you want to do in a holding is extend your slats/flaps just to respect an ATC speed limit - you'll be burning a lot more fuel!

[Lenny Colton]

1 hour ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

....but if the minimum clean speed of your aircraft is higher than 220 KIAS, simply seek ATC-approval for a higher than normal holding speed. The last thing you want to do in a holding is extend your slats/flaps just to respect an ATC speed limit - you'll be burning a lot more fuel!

Yep - you can definitely do this. For some holds, we're always happy to waive the speed limits on request - especially for distance-based holds. This would include TIMBA (within reason) for me, at least.

However, there are some time-based holds which are too close together for us to do that. You may also find that the speed limit prevents you from entering another controller's airspace.

TL;DR - Never be afraid to ask, but please don't be surprised if the answer is no.

Edited March 8, 2021 at 01:51 PM by Lenny Colton

[Andreas Fuchs]

As a pilot I will definitely not accept a "no" in such a case. I will not increase my drag/fuel-flow just because of a holding pattern. Nor here or in the real world.

[nathaniel Laurence]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:36 PM, Andreas Fuchs said:

As a pilot I will definitely not accept a "no" in such a case. I will not increase my drag/fuel-flow just because of a holding pattern. Nor here or in the real world.

I would be warey though, if you take gatwick for example and the Mayfield and TIMBA holds, they are seperated based on you flying the hold accurately, if your speed is too quick then there is the potential for you to cause conflict with the MAY hold and lose seperation type thing (MAY is typically only used during procedural approaches however) like the speed restriction is there for a reason in some cases. Like it is a published rule in the STAR and if you can't accept a speed of 220 knots, then ask ATC of course, but if they say no, then don't cause a fuss as they are usually incredibly busy when using the holds too, because at the end of the day, you accepted the clearance to Gatwick, including the use of the holds when cleared by ATC from your departing airport.

 

On 3/5/2021 at 5:58 PM, Marc Sieffert said:

Hi, during my last flight from Paris to Gatwick I was asked to hold at Timba. On the chart I could see no info regarding the size of the holding, 1mn, 1,5 mn... In this case we need to ask the Controller for this info, right?

On the holding on May (same chart below) I see the info D1,5 ... This means holding with 1,5 minute I assume, right?

If yes what is then the meaning of the D5.0 just above?

Thanks a lot!!

 

I would recommend that you have a look at the NATS charts as they contain more details including details about any speed restrictions too https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-02-25-AIRAC/html/index-en-GB.html but if you are in doubt then ask ATC because they would rather you ask than not ask, fly the hold in the wrong direction or too wide and lose seperation with other aircraft. The specific holding details can be found in the RNAV hold coding table found here: https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-02-25-AIRAC/graphics/203631.pdf

Edited March 18, 2021 at 12:01 PM by nathaniel Laurence

[Andreas Fuchs]

29 minutes ago, nathaniel Laurence said:

I would be warey though, if you take gatwick for example and the Mayfield and TIMBA holds, they are seperated based on you flying the hold accurately, if your speed is too quick then there is the potential for you to cause conflict with the MAY hold and lose seperation type thing (MAY is typically only used during procedural approaches however) like the speed restriction is there for a reason in some cases.

And as you wrote MAY is not used for holdings, but TIMBA, flying 10 or 20 knots faster should not the reason for trouble. ATC in the real world is much more flexible and accommodating as some of our wannabes here in VATSIM. A rule is not always a rule. A rule is applied when it makes sense.

[nathaniel Laurence]

8 minutes ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

And as you wrote MAY is not used for holdings, but TIMBA, flying 10 or 20 knots faster should not the reason for trouble. ATC in the real world is much more flexible and accommodating as some of our wannabes here in VATSIM. A rule is not always a rule. A rule is applied when it makes sense.

But that's because in real life ATC know what speeds an aircraft can fly whilst being seperated from the other holds. The WILLO and TIMBA holds are quite close together at Gatwick, and if you have a higher speed then in thepory, you will take up that level in the other hold. On top of this it increases the hold protected area, which when 08's are in use at Gatwick with seaford departures makes ATC's job much more difficult. At the end of the day it is easier to fly the published hold including speed restrictions on ATC which have got a whole host of other things to be dealing with for using one of 2 notches of flaps and a slightly increased fuel usage

[Andreas Fuchs]

The issue is that the increase in fuel flow is quite significant and usually one does not load more than 15 or 20 minutes extra fuel - and that's calculated for clean configuration and the associated fuel flow. 10 or 20 knots more will not put an aircraft significantly outside the protected area of the hold, it should not be an issue. We are not talking about 280 knots!

PS: luckily my jet at work is rather light, resulting in a minimum clean speed (at MLM) of 193 kts, usually no issues for us. But it's a different story for heavy airliners arriving from far away. They will probably end up holding at another place. In the real world I definitely do not enjoy operating from EGKK, security is a hassle even for us private jets.

Edited March 18, 2021 at 12:48 PM by Andreas Fuchs