Inclusivity at VATSIM

[James Horgan]

I'm sorry, but there should be no issue of pronouns on VATSIM during operations. Aircraft and Controllers are genderless, and therefore are not referred to as he or she. 'Radar' or 'Speedbird 123' has no gender. I fail to see where the issue is. We have a number of people who are trans, or have fully transitioned on the network and it doesn't stop them using the network. If you have a pronoun of choice put that in your sig/bio if it isn't obviously. But I'm with Andreas, if we could have some examples of issues from the original poster it would add context to the discussion, rather than making it seem like yet another touchpaper esque type post.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

I fail to see why knowing the original poster's stats on the network will prove anything about the validity of the concerns discussed here.

It is a fact that VATSIM presently requires official documentation to enact a name change.  As far as I am aware, that requirement is irrespective of whether the requestor has ten flying hours or ten thousand, or any number in between. 

[Mike Lehkamp]

1 hour ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

I fail to see why knowing the original poster's stats on the network will prove anything about the validity of the concerns discussed here.

It is a fact that VATSIM presently requires official documentation to enact a name change.  As far as I am aware, that requirement is irrespective of whether the requestor has ten flying hours or ten thousand, or any number in between. 

Amen! Thank you Robert. If someone wants to to pretend I'm in no way going discredit them or look down on them. Again. It's a choice. Always has been and always will. Were told to believe "the science" as it relates to the current corona pandemic. So the science and physiology must also be respected. There are two sexes. Men & women. Period! Nothing else. 

That said, again I have no problem including and loving anyone for what they believe in. No one, and I mean no one, should be singled out for hatred or violence. And that includes our men & women police officers here in the United States that are attempting to protect people like the original poster and I from violence. 

[Chloe Holmes]

44 minutes ago, Mike Lehkamp said:

Amen! Thank you Robert. If someone wants to to pretend I'm in no way going discredit them or look down on them. Again. It's a choice. Always has been and always will. Were told to believe "the science" as it relates to the current corona pandemic. So the science and physiology must also be respected. There are two sexes. Men & women. Period! Nothing else. 

That said, again I have no problem including and loving anyone for what they believe in. No one, and I mean no one, should be singled out for hatred or violence. And that includes our men & women police officers here in the United States that are attempting to protect people like the original poster and I from violence. 

Gonna say, what the heck does the violence committed by police have anything to do with this. But alas, you claim to have a scientific opinion on trans people, I would suggest you do some readings on why your opinion is wrong, because even ignoring the existence of trans people, you also completely eradicate intersex people. If you'd like you can PM me for some scientific reports if you'd like some scientific research. 

[Liesel Downes]

4 minutes ago, Chloe Holmes said:

Gonna say, what the heck does the violence committed by police have anything to do with this. But alas, you claim to have a scientific opinion on trans people, I would suggest you do some readings on why your opinion is wrong, because even ignoring the existence of trans people, you also completely eradicate intersex people. If you'd like you can PM me for some scientific reports if you'd like some scientific research. 

Wow a 152 CID with a C1????? That goes against VATSIM science!!!!!

 

[Sean Harrison]

I feel for anyone who isn’t in the black or white category.

Sadly there are people who will always include others IF they meet their conditions.  That isn’t inclusiveness in my view!  Inclusiveness isn’t conditional.

[Andreas Fuchs]

9 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

I fail to see why knowing the original poster's stats on the network will prove anything about the validity of the concerns discussed here.

It does play a role. If you enter the name that the OP uses here on the forums you will find out that this person is quite active in the scene and is "fighting" lack of inclusion at all sorts of places. That's fine by me. But since we still do not know whether the OP has even recorded a single hour of online activity at VATSIM, we cannot take his word for granted that the person has come across discrimination at VATSIM. Nor did the OP point out what Discord server booted him.

The OP is actively reading and reacting to posts here. I wonder why he/she/it/they do not provide some more details to get this out of the way.

 

Guys, I am all for inclusion. Period. But I am totally against people joining the network and then spread their propaganda. We have a good number of members from the LGTB community and as mentioned before they are all dear friends, colleagues, co-flyers and co-ATCOs. Should anyone of them get singled out for being what they are, then they should speak up and report this outrageous behaviour.

Otherwise we are here to fly and control online.

Edited March 26, 2021 at 03:11 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Advay Khaitan]

Okay so the reason I didn't address the question of my experience on VATSIM earlier is that inclusivity shouldn't be a matter of experience, and for those looking to invalidate my experience, whether I've flown for 5 minutes of 50 hours, there will always be some way I get attacked. However, since my credibility has become such an important of a topic of discussion, I will share my hours here. You can look me up on the stats page by searching for "Adi CYYT."

As a pilot, I've flown for a total of 193 hours and 57 minutes and the stats page will be evidence. I've also passed the online S1 exam recently and have applied to join a FIR as a controller. 

In terms of the Discord server I got kicked from, I didn't share screenshots over here because my goal wasn't to call a specific someone out. I did share screenshots in other platforms, but sharing screenshots here will not be productive, and could be a cause for the thread to potentially be interrupted or deleted by moderators. 

[Sean Harrison]

Propaganda = information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.

It is clear to me from the posts on this very thread, that there is a lack of inclusiveness based on sexual grounds.  The original post was about inclusiveness, not whether anyone is qualified to raise the subject.

I don’t believe we can shut down every conversation by saying “prove it”.

[Joshua Jenkins]

47 minutes ago, Sean Harrison said:

I don’t believe we can shut down every conversation by saying “prove it”.

Unfortunately these days that’s what needs to be asked. Watching the news for 10 minutes should tell you that. Some people will do or say anything for attention (not by any means saying the OP of this thread is doing that) and so we need to look at the evidence to back up their claim. There is really a big difference if someone joins the network and starts complaining that someone called them sir after flying for 25 minutes, versus someone who has actively participated on the network for an extended period of time and has found a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. I don’t think anyone is trying to shutdown the conversation but rather just adding validity to it.

[Andreas Fuchs]

4 hours ago, Advay Khaitan said:

Okay so the reason I didn't address the question of my experience on VATSIM earlier is that inclusivity shouldn't be a matter of experience, and for those looking to invalidate my experience, whether I've flown for 5 minutes of 50 hours, there will always be some way I get attacked. However, since my credibility has become such an important of a topic of discussion, I will share my hours here.

Thanks for coming back with more information. As I mentioned, my intention is not to invalidate your reasons to open this thread, me and others were simply wondering about your level of experience within VATSIM. What happens on a non-VATSIM Discord does not really play a role, because it's not part of the VATSIM network, it's not an official VATSIM service. I assume it is a private server and the admin/owner has every right to allow or not allow offtopic-discussions, like this one here.

As I can see you are a rather recent member of VATSIM, in terms of activity. Have you been abused or ridiculed while flying online? I am not talking about an ATCO innocently calling you "Sir" (that does not count as bad treatment or abuse), I am wondering about real verbal abuse. If yes, did you document and report it to VATSIM? I hope that the answer is "no" (regarding verbal abuse).

[Dylan Luhowy]

Thanks again to the OP for posting this important topic (and sticking around to hear the discussion).  I think the contents of this thread are all the evidence anyone needs to conclude we have lots of work to do to be more inclusive.

It’s important to listen to what OP has to say. Really listen without getting defensive. Don’t try to “disprove” their experience. 

[Andreas Fuchs]

4 hours ago, Sean Harrison said:

Propaganda = information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.

It is clear to me from the posts on this very thread, that there is a lack of inclusiveness based on sexual grounds.  The original post was about inclusiveness, not whether anyone is qualified to raise the subject.

No, Sean, no! A resounding no! Had Adi been a member that signed up with VATSIM only or mainly for the sake of stirring a discussion to work people up, then this would have been propaganda. Clearly, that was not the case, thanks to the data that was provided.

As in the real world, Adi's quite vocal about the cause, but also needs to respect that people here have different points of view. Basically all of use have stated in very clear terms that VATSIM is inclusive and the membership is rather diverse. You can take part in this community irrespective of your background.

 

Edit: Anyway, I have made up my mind. We are going round and round in circles, almost everything has been said. If someone feels belittled because of some attempted courtesy ("sir", "ma'am"), then please work on yourself as well: accept it as how it was meant by the sender, not how you understood it. It does go both ways.

Edited March 26, 2021 at 09:56 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Chloe Holmes]

10 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

It does play a role. If you enter the name that the OP uses here on the forums you will find out that this person is quite active in the scene and is "fighting" lack of inclusion at all sorts of places. That's fine by me. But since we still do not know whether the OP has even recorded a single hour of online activity at VATSIM, we cannot take his word for granted that the person has come across discrimination at VATSIM. Nor did the OP point out what Discord server booted him.

The OP is actively reading and reacting to posts here. I wonder why he/she/it/they do not provide some more details to get this out of the way.

 

Guys, I am all for inclusion. Period. But I am totally against people joining the network and then spread their propaganda. We have a good number of members from the LGTB community and as mentioned before they are all dear friends, colleagues, co-flyers and co-ATCOs. Should anyone of them get singled out for being what they are, then they should speak up and report this outrageous behaviour.

Otherwise we are here to fly and control online.

Hi there, I've been on the network for a number of years, and have attained hundreds of hours as both a pilot and ATC controller. The reason I've got a relatively new CID is due to my past experiences of uneducated behaviour from people on VATSIM. I have experienced discrimination on the network, from people accusing me of faking my name on the network to a refusal to accept a name change on the basis of it difficult to do here, not everyone can afford the money it costs to change their name. 

Regardless, your claim of long term members not experiencing discrimination is moot as I have experienced that. 

 

EDIT: If I documented everytime I experienced transphobic behaviour on VATSIM, I'd have a very long list to provide. Unfortunately due to it being such a cishet community, it has become too common place. 

Edited March 27, 2021 at 01:48 AM by Chloe Holmes

[Liesel Downes]

This thread is now reaching its end of usefulness, to be quite honest.

We can argue all day about how we go about these things, but in the end we all agree that being accepting of others and accommodating where possible is the best way to go about it.

A rule I live by is that even if I don't understand something, I listen to people who do and have lived experiences of it. I'll never know what it's like to be discriminated against because of my gender identity status (out of pure luck), but I need to listen to people who do. It's the same for everything. Open mindedness goes a long way and it's something VATSIM should look for. Even the Facebook group is a good demonstration of how people will bully others for saying things like "play VATSIM" or not knowing how to do some complex thing with their $200 A320. 

[Mike Lehkamp]

On 3/26/2021 at 1:52 AM, Robert Shearman Jr said:

I fail to see why knowing the original poster's stats on the network will prove anything about the validity of the concerns discussed here.

It is a fact that VATSIM presently requires official documentation to enact a name change.  As far as I am aware, that requirement is irrespective of whether the requestor has ten flying hours or ten thousand, or any number in between. 

Oh, I do. As well as a couple others...........

[Chloe Holmes]

Quote

[Mod Removed]

I'm very glad that you as a cis het man are able to easily fly without issue. However not everyone is able to do that and don't discount other people's experiences. Feel free to add me on discord rattt#1312 and I can discuss further with you. I can even send you those articles you should read 🙂

I would love for VATSIM to be a wonderful community and unfortunately that's not the case 😞 I just want everyone to have a good time without issue. We wouldn't need to have this thread if we were without issue. 

Edited March 28, 2021 at 03:19 PM by Nestor Perez
Removed deleted post

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Chloe Holmes said:

I would love for VATSIM to be a wonderful community and unfortunately that's not the case 😞 I just want everyone to have a good time without issue. We wouldn't need to have this thread if we were without issue.

Just report people if they act stupidly, we do not need them at VATSIM. I think we all agree on this.

[Matthew Bartels]

Everybody. This has gone far enough. What started out as a simple request by one of our fellow members to try to improve our communication skills has devolved into a discussion that has absolutely no place in our community. VATSIM will always be welcoming of any person who shares a love for online aviation, desires further knowledge of aviation, and wants to connect with people who share the same passion. As we are a global community, we have a sampling of every possible opinion out there, with the possible exception of not liking airplanes. We need to remember this and know that it is our love of aviation that keeps us here and respect all other members. 

 

As this thread has become very disrespectful, it is time to end it.