Question for Controllers.

[Jason Thiers]

So I'm new to Vatsim but have a basic understanding of the rules and such. For the time being I would like to just do some flights in the F-18 around the NTTR and Area 51 staying inside the restricted airspace. My question for the controllers is how detailed are your maps and does it show stuff like restricted airspaces and such? That way I can easily let the controller know I plan to stay inside that airspace, and he will know where I am talking about.

And yes I made sure to register with a VSO organization as I know that is a requirement to use restricted airspace.

 

Thanks

[Torben Andersen]

I can't tell you specifically for the US, if the retricted areas are used. In Scandinavia the restricted areas are shown on the radar screen and are highlighted as active according to real world military notams. The can be turned off and it is up the the controller to use it or not. Large part of the North Sea area are used for military activities, so a fair amount of reroutings could be a consequence of using active areas. As this would involve cross-country coordination (eg. between Denmark and Germany) it is not normally used. But the abillity is there.

[Brad Littlejohn]

15 hours ago, Jason Thiers said:

So I'm new to Vatsim but have a basic understanding of the rules and such. For the time being I would like to just do some flights in the F-18 around the NTTR and Area 51 staying inside the restricted airspace. My question for the controllers is how detailed are your maps and does it show stuff like restricted airspaces and such? That way I can easily let the controller know I plan to stay inside that airspace, and he will know where I am talking about.

And yes I made sure to register with a VSO organization as I know that is a requirement to use restricted airspace.

 

Thanks

 

To answer your question here, in the US, we definitely do use restricted airspaces. We also have SOPs for them as well. For NTTR Area 51, that is controlled by ZLA, in coordination with VSO. As for detail? they definitely are detailed, as the SOPs we have in place define the airspaces, both laterally and vertically, and what airports are controlled by those operations. We as controllers have to not only be aware of that airspace, but how to avoid that airspace, as there are scheduled times when that airspace is hot (active). 

So needless to say, we have you covered.

BL.

[Jason Thiers]

1 hour ago, Brad Littlejohn said:

 

To answer your question here, in the US, we definitely do use restricted airspaces. We also have SOPs for them as well. For NTTR Area 51, that is controlled by ZLA, in coordination with VSO. As for detail? they definitely are detailed, as the SOPs we have in place define the airspaces, both laterally and vertically, and what airports are controlled by those operations. We as controllers have to not only be aware of that airspace, but how to avoid that airspace, as there are scheduled times when that airspace is hot (active). 

So needless to say, we have you covered.

BL.

Good to know, thanks. However, when I created this post I didn't realize it would be that complicated to do that flight. I joined a VSO and passed the initial test however from what I understand you still have to complete so many hours of training before you are allowed to do that type of flying. I understand the reasons, but it doesn't seem worth it since I don't have a lot of time and most of my flights would just be taking it up for a quick spin around the range.

[Brad Littlejohn]

7 hours ago, Jason Thiers said:

Good to know, thanks. However, when I created this post I didn't realize it would be that complicated to do that flight. I joined a VSO and passed the initial test however from what I understand you still have to complete so many hours of training before you are allowed to do that type of flying. I understand the reasons, but it doesn't seem worth it since I don't have a lot of time and most of my flights would just be taking it up for a quick spin around the range.

 

Think about it this way. There are still some civilian airports that lie within that airspace. For example, NV65, L92, and 1L1 are in the NTTR. NV65 is about 15 miles east of KINS, while L92 and 1L1 are way up in the desert. You could also fly from KTPH to KTNX, and go from outside the NTTR to inside it. Or fly one of the  EG&G (read: Just Another Non-Existent Airline) flights from KLAS to the NTTR.

As for other airspaces, we have the fun-loving R-2508, where KEDW is, KTSP, KIYK, and KMHV are there, and open to the public. So you could end up with civilian flights in restricted airspace that you could also fly.

BL.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 at 02:40 AM by Brad Littlejohn

[Jason Thiers]

3 hours ago, Brad Littlejohn said:

 

Think about it this way. There are still some civilian airports that lie within that airspace. For example, NV65, L92, and 1L1 are in the NTTR. NV65 is about 15 miles east of KINS, while L92 and 1L1 are way up in the desert. You could also fly from KTPH to KTNX, and go from outside the NTTR to inside it. Or fly one of the  EG&G (read: Just Another Non-Existent Airline) flights from KLAS to the NTTR.

As for other airspaces, we have the fun-loving R-2508, where KEDW is, KTSP, KIYK, and KMHV are there, and open to the public. So you could end up with civilian flights in restricted airspace that you could also fly.

BL.

 

Just want  to say I appreciate the help, but I don't think any of those airports are inside the actual NTTR airspace but might be within some of the MOA's surrounding it. However, from what I understand of the rules you have to be certified by a VSO before you allowed to fly within any special use airspace but don't know if that includes the R-2508 airspace although it probably does. Also, I don't mind landing at a different airport I took off from but don't necessarily want to just do a direct flight. I don't know if most controllers would have a problem If I were to do some racetrack type patterns over a particular area as long as I stated my intentions and where I would be flying as long as it was over an unpopulated area.

Thanks.

[Brad Littlejohn]

12 hours ago, Jason Thiers said:

Just want  to say I appreciate the help, but I don't think any of those airports are inside the actual NTTR airspace but might be within some of the MOA's surrounding it. However, from what I understand of the rules you have to be certified by a VSO before you allowed to fly within any special use airspace but don't know if that includes the R-2508 airspace although it probably does. Also, I don't mind landing at a different airport I took off from but don't necessarily want to just do a direct flight. I don't know if most controllers would have a problem If I were to do some racetrack type patterns over a particular area as long as I stated my intentions and where I would be flying as long as it was over an unpopulated area.

Thanks.

You bring up some good questions here.

First, I don't think it's right that one has to be certified by a VSO to fly out of a civilian airport that may lie within any SUA. That would essentially mean that every airport I mentioned would require certification by a VSO to fly into or out of, even if it is a public (read: not military) field. I'll check our SOPs to see if we have anything regarding that.

Second, this brings up a much broader question. Does VSO's requirements for a pilot trump the SOPs/LOAs for a given area in relation to a non-military airport in any SUA? Granted this is highly US-specific, but if there's a civilian airport that lies in restricted airspace, a pilot shouldn't need special certification to fly out of that civilian airport, just because the civilian airport lies in restricted airspace. In this case, this may need to be asked of VSO and VATUSA.

BL.

 

[Kirk Christie]

6 hours ago, Brad Littlejohn said:

First, I don't think it's right that one has to be certified by a VSO to fly out of a civilian airport that may lie within any SUA

You dont have to be VSO certified to fly out of any airport including military airports, only specific Military activities are VSO restricted. Flying from point A to B in a F/A 18 is not arestricted activity.

Only a VSO can activate restricted airspace, with out VSO activation its essential free use air space. 

[Brad Littlejohn]

17 hours ago, Kirk Christie said:

You dont have to be VSO certified to fly out of any airport including military airports, only specific Military activities are VSO restricted. Flying from point A to B in a F/A 18 is not arestricted activity.

Only a VSO can activate restricted airspace, with out VSO activation its essential free use air space. 

This is good to know.

So there should be nothing restricting someone  from departing a military airport, flying from one end of that military airspace, turning back around, and landing at the same airport they departed. If that's the case, I think that is what Jason is looking for.

BL.

[Jason Thiers]

 

On 4/9/2021 at 12:59 PM, Brad Littlejohn said:

This is good to know.

So there should be nothing restricting someone  from departing a military airport, flying from one end of that military airspace, turning back around, and landing at the same airport they departed. If that's the case, I think that is what Jason is looking for.

BL.

Yes that's exactly what I'm looking for, although I really don't mind landing at another airport if need be. The type of flights I do most consist of departing Area51 climbing up to round 40,000FT and then doing some racetrack type patterns within the range and then landing. I can connect Plan-G with vatsim which allows me to see other aircraft in the area so I can steer clear of them.

Also, I haven't seen any rules regarding supersonic operations, but I would imagine there are restrictions on that.

[Jason Thiers]

On 4/8/2021 at 7:52 PM, Kirk Christie said:

You dont have to be VSO certified to fly out of any airport including military airports, only specific Military activities are VSO restricted. Flying from point A to B in a F/A 18 is not arestricted activity.

Only a VSO can activate restricted airspace, with out VSO activation its essential free use air space. 

This is very helpful, thanks,