Flying military aircraft.

[Skomantas Budrys]

I've seen many people talk about this and the answer seems to be different everywhere. I wanted to clear up a few things:

A. Are basic pilots who are not registered to a VSO allowed to fly military jets in military airbases.

B. If the answer to question A is yes, are we allowed to go Mach 1+ above water, if so, what maneuvers are we allowed and are not allowed to do?

[Sean Harrison]

A. YES.  You will get lots of different comments, but nothing in the rules saying “xxxxx cannot utilise military airfields”.

B. Without ATC go for it.  If ATC is on then negotiate.

[Don Desfosse]

Answered perfectly!

[Kirk Christie]

It is only the activtiy that is restricted to VSO's 
https://www.vatsim.net/sites/default/files/documents/VSOA Policy May 2015.pdf

Quote

1.7. ACTIVITIES RESTRICTED TO VSO. VSO organizations are permitted to engage in the following activities:
-Conducting joint training exercises with other approved VSO organizations
-War games -Air to air refueling -Carrier operations
-Flying low level military training routes
-Flying escort missions
-Executing air combat maneuvers
-Interception/scramble of other aircraft
-Having access to special use airspace.
-Search & Rescue and Fire Fighting

 

[Nathaniel Miller]

Actually it is all I know... and really enjoy the mil planes more than airliners. I definitely agree with this post. 

Although i fly with Westwind VA (Temporary sabbatical) I have flown most any airliner... My passions though are the Turbo-props too DHC 6,7,8... and the NASA aircraft and experimentalis... revamping them to the real specs... Going Mach 2 with my hair on fire... kinda thing... Modification and repainting of aircraft for various Real world schemes...

(Dad was in aviation as an engineer for the real life airliner and mil sims for 40 years and he taught me how to read the sheets and understand their meaning and where to plug them in a simulator)

He worked on various mil simulators and civilian ones in his career.

Also having served us military have stood near to a variety of aircraft...  (An F-22 Raptor at Nellis AFB when i enlisted the Navy in Vegas) I was on base with my chief and others at the gym working out and had stepped out for some air as two raptors rolled in about 100 yards from us... just sitting at that distance they were fricking intimidating...  looks like they were ready for business...   an A-10 Thunderbolt II at Luke AFB with AZ NG was really cool too...  both a thing of beauty...

I would love to continue testing experimental AC on the VATSIM network... is this allowed?

I don't particularly want to do it on joinFS or FSCLOUD because I have a bit of an issue with lame-ass kids and their "Mayday mayday, mayday af1 engine failure request emergency landing" Bull****,   Simulating the 9/11 attack, (Tragic that it was, i find it offensive personally) or they constantly and deliberately run into you... (and i never have crashes off since I ever started playing FS)  I am quite good at FS flying... and many years of learning the ropes... rather be with adults than the kiddos...

I would be working out in the S. Pacific (on a scenery of my own that I created that is located in an isolated area near Tahiti.) I am not going to be near ANY ATC Center... and I can stay out of the way  while I do my thing... once i finish reading the documentation pertaining to VATSIM...  (Site regs and all that... )

Would appreciate any insight for this kind of operations.

MM/FA N.A Miller, USN Ret.

 
 

 

[Sean Harrison]

Unless someone else says anything, My belief is that only marine and land vehicles are banned.  If it’s an aircraft go fly it, monitor 122.800 on either com 1 or com 2, and watch out for ATC joining.

[Nathaniel Miller]

lol they wouldn't ban me if i was sailing my sailing boat around Tahiti would they? 😉 EVEN if i tuned in 122.8????? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! 

AHHH come on... its the good living... The boat... the Sea... Sunshine, Warm Climate, HOT and Beautiful bikini clad babes on the deck... me with a fishing pole, bait,  and plenty of beer,  as we reel in that Marlin 😉  OH HELL YEA -- Wishes i was there already.  😉 Fly myself down in my own private jet.  or charter ATP... 

OHHHHH I WISH! 😮

MM/FA N.A Miller, USN Ret.

 

[Tobias Dammers]

3 hours ago, Nathaniel Miller said:

lol they wouldn't ban me if i was sailing my sailing boat around Tahiti would they?

How would that even work? Nobody else has boats in their model matching, you'd have to report your aircraft type as ZZZZ, ATC would treat you like an aircraft (seaplane maybe?), you would most likely show up as some kind of utility floatplane on everyone else's computers, and since you can't take off, all you could do is "taxi" a little. You would probably not get kicked, but it would also be a completely pointless thing to do, and all that just to make your point? Eh.

[Jim Rish]

12 hours ago, Tobias Dammers said:

How would that even work?

It doesn't work. Never has. The same goes with any SimObject that nobody else has but you. My ships (pilotable SimObject not AI), no matter what server I use, will show up as something like a Piper, or whatever aircraft, simply floating on the water at about 24 kts.. The same thing goes with people talking about running AIcarriers2 in multiplayer. It's completely meaningless to everybody else but to whoever is using it. All anybody else will see, if they fly out over the water or something, is an airplane hovering about 65-74 ft. ASL on top of nothing at all. That's it.

[Jim Rish]

In fact, such is the case for anyone hosting a FS room using the VRS TacPack add-on. I'm sure TacPack has all the bells and whistles, if you've got it. However, if you don't have it, and a join the server hosting TacPack, you won't see anything at all except a Beechcraft on the ground somewhere near the tower or something. All the working military add-ons, the F/A-18, vehicles, and everything else, won't show up at all. It doesn't matter if you're on VATSIM or anywhere else. 🧐

[Jim Rish]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:08 PM, Nathaniel Miller said:

   an A-10 Thunderbolt II at Luke AFB with AZ NG was really cool too...  both a thing of beauty...

I would love to continue testing experimental AC on the VATSIM network... is this allowed?

 

 

 

Dassault's Rafale is the most responsive aircraft in the world. From low, to high end. Period. And, unlike Douglas' flying truck, known as the F-4, you'd better be ready for what happens when you push on the throttle of the Rafale. I assure you.  As far as flying on here, or anywhere else, any F/A-18, or Mirage, cruise along quite nicely at 165 kts.  Therefore, I don't see what flying on VATSIM has to do with anything. Both the F/A-18, and F-16, for that matter, use regular airports in the world, whenever.  You just have the superior climb rate to get to the initial altitude, and turn radius to point themselves quickly to whatever heading, when they leave the place.

Edited July 14, 2021 at 05:55 PM by Jim Rish

[Nathaniel Miller]

On 7/13/2021 at 11:21 AM, Tobias Dammers said:

How would that even work? Nobody else has boats in their model matching, you'd have to report your aircraft type as ZZZZ, ATC would treat you like an aircraft (seaplane maybe?), you would most likely show up as some kind of utility floatplane on everyone else's computers, and since you can't take off, all you could do is "taxi" a little. You would probably not get kicked, but it would also be a completely pointless thing to do, and all that just to make your point? Eh.

WELL DARN!!!!!! LOL!!!! 🙂 🤣😜

FA/MM N.A Miller, USN Ret.

 

[Jim Rish]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:49 PM, Nathaniel Miller said:

WELL DARN!!!!!! LOL!!!! 🙂 🤣😜

FA/MM N.A Miller, USN Ret.

 

 If you would like some really cool add-on scenery besides your sail boat, I highly recommend Javier's aircraft carrier scenery at Pensacola, or the KNPA area itself. Actually, I got it all, including the cool KNPA scenery also. That's why I keep using FSX. It's not the product, but it's what people have done outside the product itself, and all the work that went into it,  that makes this thing special.

[Jim Rish]

Anyways, I just skipped right on over the obvious part of all of this. The Vpilot thing, whatever connection to whatever server there is, Squawkbox 4, which had some type of model facsimile, better than nothing of course, or the "model matching" ranted on here about, means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Either I have EXACTLY what you have, the SimObject, and EVERYTHING that goes with it; whether it's your sailboat, plane, it doesn't matter. If I don't have what you have, I ain't gonna see you using it. All I will see is some representation, more or less, and most of the time, vague actually,  of what you are actually flying, sailing, or whatever. That's all there is to it, and that's all there ever has been to it.

Edited July 16, 2021 at 08:23 AM by Jim Rish

[Ken Doyen]

Is spec ops all you guys do in VSO's?  I've always only flown fighters ever since I got Xplane 11, except for the Schweizer helicopter.  I just fly to/from airports like any other non-RNAV plane would, i.e. SIDS, STARS, standard & HI approaches.  In over 1500 hours on VATSIM I don't think I've ever heard group flights of fighters like the tubeliners.  I've always wanted to do group flights during events like everyone else, but, I'm all alone.  The people I've met who have fighters don't want to fly them online, for whatever reason.  Does anyone know if any of the VSO's do that?  For me, it's not about FS Airlines or FS Economy or whatever people use.  For me, it's about doing things together, finding interesting and challenging approaches, & having a large enough group that could request ATC.  Not just request ATC, but, also have ATC think, "Hey, those guys are good.  I never have a problem with them.  I'd love to get on for them." 

Edited September 11, 2022 at 05:48 AM by Ken Doyen

[Don Desfosse]

Yep, vUSAF does, mainly F22s and F35s.  Also AAR with a gaggle guzzling gas.  Not often, wish the numbers were higher, but the camaraderie is definitely there to do it.

[Ken Doyen]

9 minutes ago, Don Desfosse said:

Yep, vUSAF does, mainly F22s and F35s.  Also AAR with a gaggle guzzling gas.  Not often, wish the numbers were higher, but the camaraderie is definitely there to do it.

Would I have to go through the long process of joining a VSO if I don't want to do spec ops?

[Torben Andersen]

Read Kirk's post from  July 11th, 2021. Membership of a VSO is only mandatory, if you wish to conduct the operations mentioned in the post. Otherwise feel free to fly the aircraft of you choice.

[Ken Doyen]

That link is outdated.  I've read the VSO rules.  What I was wondering is if there's a place to coordinate group flights that would not be VSO.  I don't see how doing a group flight single file like tubeliners or departing from different airports would be considered spec ops.  Anyway, I'm filling out a registration with a VSO right now.  We'll see what happens.

[Pranav Chandramouli]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:11 AM, Ken Doyen said:

That link is outdated. 

Hi Ken,

Wish you the best with your VSO application.

The SOA policy can be found here. It is linked on the CoC under A13.

 

Cheers

Pranav

[Ken Doyen]

.5.1.6 Flying low level military routes
The action of conducting training through military designated areas at low levels with intent to appear with intent to be
conducting it in a military manner

 

This part has always confused me.  I've done a couple low level group flights with the Virtual USA Flying Club.  I would fly the F4U Corsair while the others flew GA planes.  It wasn't for escort purposes, I just like flying military planes.  Group flights like that are really hard to come by unless you're on the MSFS network.  Maybe people are afraid or have been told low level flying in any plane is considered VSO.  For me, it's not about being an escort, although I joke I am an escort.  I just fly fighter jets cuz it's what I like to fly.  I fly solo all the time on Vatsim in fighters, over 1500 hours.  I've heard if another fighter was with me, even if trailing by a few miles IFR, it's considered VSO.  Is that true?  2 Boeings or 2 Airbuses is ok but 2 fighters isn't.  Is that true?  Just want to clarify.

[Don Desfosse]

We have long-held "rule of thumb" precedent that ALL of the following three criteria for a flight to be considered subject to the VSOA policy:

1. Type of Aircraft
2. Callsign
3. Type of Operation

All 3 criteria must be met for the flight to be subject to VSOA policy.

Just a couple of examples:

• Two F15's with military callsigns flying in formation is subject to VSOA policy
• Your example of a pre-planned group flight with a bunch of GA aircraft plus you in a fighter, all using civilian callsigns, flying together or even in formation is fine
• You flying a MTR in a fighter with a military callsign is subject to VSOA policy
• You flying a MTR in a fighter with a civilian callsign is fine

I know it's not perfectly clear-cut, black or white, no exceptions type definition.  It's meant to be a rule of thumb.  We won't go evaluate a list of every possibility because "ain't nobody got time for that!" 🙂    Appropriate reason is expected by the members attempting the flight as well as those trying to evaluate it's special operations status.  But it has stood the test of time for many, many years.  I do hope this helps.

[Daniel Mckee]

A few times over the years my group (not a VA) have flown routes like the Machynlleth Loop  "Mach Loop" in Wales in military aircraft however using civilian call signs and no feathers have ever appeared to be ruffled. We have also re-enacted the Berlin Airlift into Templehoff (now closed of course) again using civilian call signs and that flight had Vatsim Germany ATC (who had been pre-warned of the flight and who had provided valuable information like no radar contact because there was no radar at that time!!) So I suppose the point is that you cannot make rules for common sense.