Question about taking off from/landing at class C/D airports when no tower is online

[Mehmet Noyan]

Hi All,

So as you can probably guess I'm a new pilot on the network.  I did a couple of practice flights today where I found a towered airport and flew some circuits, and that was straightforward enough.  However, I'm trying to branch out into flying from point A to B now (figured I'd start VFR), and I'm getting a bit confused about who to contact and when, particularly when no tower controller is online, but the center which controls the airspace is manned.  As an example, assume the flight is from KPOU to KBDL, VFR, and neither tower is manned, but Boston Center (which controls the airspace both are in) is manned.  So a few questions.

1)  In order to get clearance/taxi/takeoff permission from KPOU, do I just contact Boston Center?  So something along the lines of 'Boston Center, Call Sign Here, Cessna 172 at GA Apron, request clearance VFR to Bradley with appropriate ATIS" and then just do the same for the taxi/takeoff?

2)  Usually once airborne, you'll switch off the tower and then either can squawk VFR or request a flight following from the center.  Here, how will that work?  There's no 'handoff' since it's all the same frequency; do I contact them when I'm airborne requesting a flight following?  Alternatively, once airborne can I just squawk VFR (as long as I'm not in controlled airspace) and not contact anyone?

3)  When I'm at the point of my trip when I'm going to request the landing, if I have the flight following do I need to terminate the flight following, and then contact them again requesting permission to land?  Also, normally when you contact the tower, it's obvious that you'll be landing at that airport.  Here do I need to specify which airport I'm going to?  So instead of "Bradley Tower, call sign here is location at altitude.  Requesting to land", you'd say "...requesting to land at Bradley International."  Or will they know from your flight plan?

4)  Once I've landed, I stay with the center for taxi correct?

Thanks for your time everyone!

Best,

-M

[Brian Colavito]

Apologies, I don't have an answer to your question but I am in a similar situation.  It sounds like you've given your situation even more thought that I did so, was wondering if you or someone could help me as well.  Here's what happened:

I was flying a Beechraft 350 (dual prop, no airline), callsign N12318 KTEB (Teterboro) to KMTP (Montauk) IVR with filed flightplan.  I chose this because I wanted to get aquainted to departure/center and not get bogged down in taxi/takeoff clearance (yet).  KTEB and KMTP have no manned towers but they do go through some interesting airspaces.  Boston was manned but NY Center was not at this time.

So, I announced my departure on Unicom.  I expected to hear nothing until I got to Boston's airpsace.  But, all of a sudden I got a DM from NY_CTR telling me to tune to 125.320 which I did.  I announced my callsign, destination and altitude.  No response.  

After a moment, I switched over to 125.325, which vPilot told me was the actual freq for NY_CTR.  I heard a bunch of intense chatter with heavy aircraft and decided...better not crash this party I wasn't invited to.  So, I went back to 125.320 and tried again.  Still nothing.

At this point I was well into Boston's airspace and decided to better contact them.  I did and they got my radar contact and followed their instructions.  That part was great.  It also helped me confirm my RX/TX audio was working fine (yes, I'm that new...this was my first flight I actually had a converstion with ATC and not a blind transmit to Unicom).

Boston told me to go back to 125.320 (again, still not 125.325), so I read back that instruction and said goodnight.  Announced callsign and altitude again, no response.  A moment later, I requested altitude change, no response.  I quickly checked back with 125.325 and they still sounded pretty busy.  I think I left a text message there.  No one responsed to that.

When I hit my approach transition I switched back to Unicom and announced landing intentions.  The end.

Did I do all of this right?  My only thought is maybe I should have announcred on 125.325 anyway, but I had two ATCs telling me 125.320 was the right freq so...?

Also, is there a better place to ask this question if this ins't the right one?

Thanks in advance!

ps - At no point did I request or receive taxi, takeoff or landing clearance.  I just kinda went for it since no one appeard to be online/listening and there was no traffic nearby.  But as stated I did announce on Unicom.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

The frequency you heard all the chatter on was the one you were supposed to be on.  It's only recently that the third digit after the decimal became critical (frequency spacing used to be greater) so there are some discrepancies with how frequencies are listed on the network.  Generally if the first two places after the decimal are correct and you hear people talking, that's the one you want.

[Mike Sweeney]

Quote

1)  In order to get clearance/taxi/takeoff permission from KPOU, do I just contact Boston Center?
So something along the lines of 'Boston Center, Call Sign Here, Cessna 172 at GA Apron, request clearance VFR to Bradley with appropriate ATIS" and then just do the same for the taxi/takeoff?

- Omit request for VFR clearance; (not applicable)
- For initial contact: "xxx Center, Cessna 12345 at Hudson Valley Regl g.a. parking, type 172, taxi with weather information, VFR northeast departure."
(For 12345, use aircraft tail number; For g.a. parking, use Flight Level FBO or wherever the aircraft is parked.)
For example, at KPOU, the Flight Level FBO parking = the terminal ramp. Refer to airport diagram to identify aircraft's location on the field.
- A pilot may optionally request VFR flight following to Bradley at (insert VFR en route altitude) (a) before departure while on the ground or (b) after airborne.
 

Quote

2)  Usually once airborne, you'll switch off the tower and then either can squawk VFR or request a flight following from the center.  Here, how will that work?  There's no 'handoff' since it's all the same frequency; do I contact them when I'm airborne requesting a flight following?  Alternatively, once airborne can I just squawk VFR (as long as I'm not in controlled airspace) and not contact anyone?

- If flight following has been requested on the ground, a beacon code will be assigned before departure. Squawk the code for the duration of flight, to destination, unless advised otherwise.
- If flight following has not been requested on the ground, depart class delta airport squawking VFR (1200). Request flight following airborne and squawk the assigned code.
 

Quote

3)  When I'm at the point of my trip when I'm going to request the landing, if I have the flight following do I need to terminate the flight following, and then contact them again requesting permission to land?  Also, normally when you contact the tower, it's obvious that you'll be landing at that airport.  Here do I need to specify which airport I'm going to?  So instead of "Bradley Tower, call sign here is location at altitude.  Requesting to land", you'd say "...requesting to land at Bradley International."  Or will they know from your flight plan?

- Once flight following has been requested and aircraft is receiving en route radar services (VFR traffic advisories), keep the code to destination, unless advised otherwise.
- If only Center is online, they will transmit instructions for entering traffic pattern and runway in use at KBDL.  Remain on Center frequency.

- If BDL_APP or TWR online, typically expect a handoff from Center, and transmit, "Cessna 12345, landing with information, (insert atis identifier)."
(If squawking an assigned beacon code (for flight following), aircraft position not necessary (optional) when contacting APP or TWR.)
Otherwise, if squawking 1200, (for example, if radar services were terminated), include aircraft position on initial contact with APP or TWR. e.g.
"BDL_TWR, Cessna 12345, 10nm southwest, landing with (insert atis identifier)."
or
"BDL_APP, Cessna 12345, 30nm southwest at 5,500, landing BDL with (insert atis identifier)."

Quote

4)  Once I've landed, I stay with the center for taxi correct?

Correct, KBDL is a class C airport and with VATSIM's top-down coverage, Boston Center would typically provide TWR and GND services for KBDL.
(If there is no other ATC online for KBDL.)

To learn more, check ATO roster: https://www.vatsim.net/pilots/training
Additional Pilot training for New England area: https://forum.bvartcc.com/bvaportal/communities/wings/
Note: As [Boston ARTCC Virtual] WINGS is not affiliated with VATSIM's Pilot Training Department, members cannot receive VATSIM P-ratings through this program. Those looking for VATSIM ratings may wish to explore VATSTAR's flight training options.

Hope this helps.

Edited July 12, 2021 at 05:28 PM by Mike Sweeney

[Dustin Rider]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:36 PM, Brian Colavito said:

So, I announced my departure on Unicom.  I expected to hear nothing until I got to Boston's airpsace.  But, all of a sudden I got a DM from NY_CTR telling me to tune to 125.320 which I did.  I announced my callsign, destination and altitude.  No response.  

After a moment, I switched over to 125.325, which vPilot told me was the actual freq for NY_CTR.  I heard a bunch of intense chatter with heavy aircraft and decided...better not crash this party I wasn't invited to.  So, I went back to 125.320 and tried again.  Still nothing.

As Robert was alluding to, ATC frequencies in the US are still issued in a frequency format based on a 25 kHz frequency spacing, which, practically speaking, means that any frequency that ends in a .02 or .07 is actually going to be .025 or .075. So if a controller says contact New York Center on 125.32, you would tune your 25 kHz radio to 125.32 and it would tune to 125.325. If your aircraft uses 8.33 kHz spacing--which a lot of simulated aircraft are doing these days--you may have to add the extra 5 at the end of the frequency, when appropriate.

This is one of those things that is a holdover from the early VATSIM days when only five digits were used on the network and the third digit after the decimal was ignored. Since network and simulator technology has changed, this kind of frequency confusion has occasionally cropped up.

[Alex Ying]

I'll just add one more thing that wasn't addressed already. Airspace maps and the VATSIM online maps can be misleading when it comes to what radar (TRACON or En-Route) controller covers what airports because airspace design is more complex than as depicted on maps.

POU, even though it appears underneath Boston Center on maps is in fact controlled by the NY TRACON and gets covered top-down by NY Center if the appropriate sector isn't online. You can determine this by looking at the airport entry in SkyVector https://skyvector.com/airport/POU/Hudson-Valley-Regional-Airport or AirNav https://www.airnav.com/airport/KPOU

There is an ARTCC entry indicating New York Center and under Airport Communications there are entries for New York Approach and Departure.

[Mehmet Noyan]

@Mike Sweeney and @Alex Ying.  Both comments very helpful.  Thank you for your guys' time.  Mike I joined Boston ARTCC and will try to do their wings program.  Thanks for suggesting it!

Cheers,

-M