Home region restriction for CAOC Visitor Endorsement

[Andre Almeida]

I'd like to clarify if under the GCAP a CAOC would still be allowed to restrict their visiting controllers to be from a specific home region.

As an example, this is one of Eurocontrol vACCs criteria:

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Be a member of one of VATSIM Europe Region's three divisions (EUD, UK and RUS)

Same exists for South America Control:

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 Be a member of one of VATSIM South America Region's three divisions (VATSUR, VATCA and VATBRZ)

While asking about these restrictions, and to avoid creating a new topic, I'd like to ask if this would still be valid:

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Please note that a pre-requisite for endorsement on EURM is to have at least 50 hours' experience on another EuroControl sector, therefore EURM is not available as an additional sector

For those not familiar with Eurocontrol vACC, it is comprised of 5 sectors, EURW, EURM, EURS, EURE, EURN. One can start at any of those, except at EURM, that one requires some prior experience controlling another EURx sector.

[Matthew Bartels]

As written, no. If I wanted to work any of those places I’d need to train for the endorsement. Why stop someone who’s interested in working one of those places and willing to go though the training simply because they’re not within that home area?

[Andre Almeida]

All right. That's how I interpreted it, just wanted to double check. Thank you.

[Mateusz Zymla]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:47 PM, Matthew Bartels said:

As written, no. If I wanted to work any of those places I’d need to train for the endorsement. Why stop someone who’s interested in working one of those places and willing to go though the training simply because they’re not within that home area?

Are CAOC endorsements counted towards 3 endorsements limit? 

[Matthew Bartels]

No

[Mateusz Zymla]

Just now, Matthew Bartels said:

No

Why? 

[Matthew Bartels]

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6.05(j)(viii) CAOC, Oceanic Control Areas, and Virtual Airline Ramp Controller positions do not count towards the limit specified in 6.04(j)(vii)

 

[Mateusz Zymla]

1 minute ago, Matthew Bartels said:

 

This does not answer the question. I didn't asked, where it's stated, I asked 

WHY

it doesn't count. These positions also require training, currency, and other, local techniques?

[Matthew Bartels]

Because these places entirely different skill sets and rely on visitors mainly to provide service on a normal day.  Nobody is really a home controller for the Caribbean FSS. If we want these places staffed, we provide incentive by not having it count against their visiting limit.

[Andreas Fuchs]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:47 PM, Matthew Bartels said:

As written, no. If I wanted to work any of those places I’d need to train for the endorsement. Why stop someone who’s interested in working one of those places and willing to go though the training simply because they’re not within that home area?

In the case of EURM ("Maastricht" control position) I have to say that I have my reservations that it cannot be restricted anymore. It's a very intense piece of airspace with at least 8 busy or even very busy airports within or adjacent to its borders that make it quite a bit special and demanding. If we allow someone new to control it with the expectation that the candidate will do so with at least good quality, then more training will be required and we simply do not have the resources for that at VACC EUC. The other sectors are also demanding, but in a different way and are more compatible with coaches being able to release new joiners after one or two training sessions.

 

Summary: within VACC EUC, the EURM-sector is a special sector itself and controlling it well, builds on the experience that one gains by controlling one or more of the other EURx stations for a while. That's what we owe to the fact that we do not have the manpower to provide enough training for EURM only, if it is the first sector of someone.

Edited July 24, 2021 at 02:10 PM by Andreas Fuchs
grammar

[Mateusz Zymla]

On 7/24/2021 at 11:05 AM, Andreas Fuchs said:

In the case of EURM ("Maastricht" control position) I have to say that I have my reservations that it cannot be restricted anymore. It's a very intense piece of airspace with at least 8 busy or even very busy airports within or adjacent to its borders that make it quite a bit special and demanding. If we allow someone new to control it with the expectation that the candidate will do so with at least good quality, then more training will be required and we simply do not have the resources for that at VACC EUC. The other sectors are also demanding, but in a different way and are more compatible with coaches being able to release new joiners after one or two training sessions.

 

Summary: within VACC EUC, the EURM-sector is a special sector itself and controlling it well, builds on the experience that one gains by controlling one or more of the other EURx stations for a while. That's what we owe to the fact that we do not have the manpower to provide enough training for EURM only, if it is the first sector of someone.

Bringing on EUC is a bad example, because itself it's a disastrous "CAOC" that I, personally, as well as many other people do, wish it will be deleted one day, but I guess, getting division-specific examples in this matter actually is a bit off topic since "GCAP" suppose to cover entire VATSIM, and these specific requirements will be transfered to divisions themselves. 

Edited July 27, 2021 at 05:24 PM by Mateusz Zymla

[Andreas Fuchs]

No, I think that EUC is an excellent example and also a great unit. I am sorry that you have made bad experiences with it.