EGKK - flight planning and SIDs

[Spender Vondel]

Hi,

I'm preparing my takeoff from EGKK by reading up on the Navigraph charts and info. I'm planning EGKK - OMDB. This is what Simbrief gives me (showing only the departure part): WIZA1X WIZAD L18 DVR UL9 KONAN [deleted rest]

However, upon checking the WIZA1X SID the chart says: 'WIZAD SID is a tactical routing allocated by ATC to alleviate airspace congestion [...] NOT TO BE USED FOR FLIGHT PLANNING PURPOSES.' So Simbrief cannot actually select this by default as a valid flight plan. Simbrief does not show any alternative routes with a different SID.

Navigraph is showing these departure options, but as you can see, none are good alternatives: it would require me to select the HARD1X SID - which is allowed for flight planning - and then manually adapt my flight plan, which I don't really want to do.

So, how does one tackle this? 🙂 Thanks.

Edited September 19, 2021 at 11:35 AM by Spender Vondel

[Spender Vondel]

Just found out that Simbrief allows to exclude SIDs and calculate a custom route:

In this case it gave me the MIMF1M departure.

Edit: ... which failed IFPS validation big time. Sigh 😞

Edited September 19, 2021 at 12:04 PM by Spender Vondel

[Trevor Hannant]

A great starting point within the UK's airspace is the NATS Standard Route Document - this gives valid preferred routes within the UK in an Excel spreadsheet format.

Use the filters on the ADEP/Entry column to highlight only Gatwick routes - then either look down the list for those terminating at the edge of UK airspace or filter the ADES/Exit column with that point also.

Based on your routing via KONAN, you've got the following possible routes:

You can instantly rule out some of them as they're level restricted or for the opposite runway.   With runway 26L in use (as at time of typing), you can rule DVR and ODVIK out...

You now have MIMFO as your chosen SID.   Check the notes for anything and you'll be able to then continue with the rest of your filing.

[Spender Vondel]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Hannant said:

A great starting point within the UK's airspace is the NATS Standard Route Document - this gives valid preferred routes within the UK in an Excel spreadsheet format.

Use the filters on the ADEP/Entry column to highlight only Gatwick routes - then either look down the list for those terminating at the edge of UK airspace or filter the ADES/Exit column with that point also.

Based on your routing via KONAN, you've got the following possible routes:

You can instantly rule out some of them as they're level restricted or for the opposite runway.   With runway 26L in use (as at time of typing), you can rule DVR and ODVIK out...

You now have MIMFO as your chosen SID.   Check the notes for anything and you'll be able to then continue with the rest of your filing.

Useful, thanks 🙂 I was on the same path.

I took the Simbrief WIZAD1X flight plan and replaced it with the MIMF1M, so the rest of the route would remain intact: MIMF1M MIMFO Y312 DVR UL9 KONAN

IFPS validation gives me a lot of errors though, but that's another issue.

[Spender Vondel]

I simply am not able to come up with a route that passes IFPS validation. I assume real world flight planners have the appropriate tools to do so; Simbrief simply can't, and trying to do it manually is next to impossible (for me at least).

[Torben Andersen]

4 hours ago, Spender Vondel said:

I simply am not able to come up with a route that passes IFPS validation. I assume real world flight planners have the appropriate tools to do so; Simbrief simply can't, and trying to do it manually is next to impossible (for me at least).

It is unfortunately often a trial and error process. Be aware that some routes are rejected due to mil activity of which we at VATSIM rarely are restricted by. One method to aviod these is to plan the flight at another time of the day or during weekends, when many of these restrictions are lifted, as the military rarely closes airspace in the weekends.

But if you post your preliminary route I'm sure someone will have a look.

cheers

[Lauri Uusitalo]

20 hours ago, Spender Vondel said:

Hi,

I'm preparing my takeoff from EGKK by reading up on the Navigraph charts and info. I'm planning EGKK - OMDB. This is what Simbrief gives me (showing only the departure part): WIZA1X WIZAD L18 DVR UL9 KONAN [deleted rest]

...

Navigraph is showing these departure options, but as you can see, none are good alternatives: it would require me to select the HARD1X SID - which is allowed for flight planning - and then manually adapt my flight plan, which I don't really want to do.

Chart states "Pilots unable to accept WIZAD SID ... will be reallocated ADMAG SID as appropriate." For whatever reason I can not find ADMAG... Same with at least one other SID out of EGKK.

[Torben Andersen]

Perhaps you're using an older desciption. From UK AIP I have: Pilots unable to accept WIZAD SID when offered must inform ATC and will be re-allocated DVR SID.

The lates is from 02 DEC 20, which is newer than Navigraph's.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 at 08:06 AM by Torben Andersen

[Trevor Hannant]

If it's an editorial change, Navigraph may not have updated - provided tracks are the same etc...

If anyone is in any doubt, the UK AIP can be found here - https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/opencms/en/Publications/AIP/

Edited September 20, 2021 at 12:05 PM by Trevor Hannant

[Torben Andersen]

As the alternative SIDs are different, I wouldn't call it an editorial change. I'll notify Navigraph.

New: Navigraph is investigating the problem and they'll come back to me with a responce.

Edited September 21, 2021 at 03:23 PM by Torben Andersen
update

[Andreas Fuchs]

On 9/19/2021 at 2:45 PM, Spender Vondel said:

I simply am not able to come up with a route that passes IFPS validation. I assume real world flight planners have the appropriate tools to do so; Simbrief simply can't, and trying to do it manually is next to impossible (for me at least).

Yeah, do not worry too much about flightplan validation. When I cannot find a valid/good routing from A to B, I check if Simbrief holds a good route from another airport C, which is located near A. In your case that would be EGLL to OMDB. Looking at the route, you could then merge it with a valid routing from EGKK to EDDF at point KONAN. That is usually a rather quick process and I use Skyvector to visualize the routes to help finding the point where they overlap.

Edited September 21, 2021 at 06:46 PM by Andreas Fuchs
spelling

[Trevor Hannant]

Just to add to what Andreas says above, I checked a couple of LL-OMDB routes from the EDI GLA site (real world flightplans) and the last three I checked at the time didn't validate - but they were filed and were used...  

Don't get overly hung up on validation, especially on VATSIM provided it's not throwing LOTS of errors...

[Spender Vondel]

Thank you for the useful replies everyone. I just retried a Simbrief routing and suddenly the IFPS validation only gave me 1 error (as opposed to 10 errors when I started this topic).

[Alistair Thomson]

It's a bit like winning the lottery! I can't help thinking there must be a better way for VATSIM members to get an acceptable route for a flight plan.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Even in the real world it is tricky sometimes and professional flight dispatchers are having a hard time getting a valid routing. Here at VATSIM we do have a number of good and free services: Simbrief, vroute, FlightAware, Skyvector....