How to deal with old airac data without upgrading navdata?

[Reece Arcinas]

How I can deal with old airac data without having to upgrade the navdata by paying for it?

[Lauri Uusitalo]

By responding "unable" to many requests by ATC?

[Robert Shearman Jr]

12 hours ago, Reece Arcinas said:

How I can deal with old airac data without having to upgrade the navdata by paying for it?

I mean, if the question is how you can update your navigation data without paying for a subscription to a navigation data service, the answer is that you can't -- not, at least, through any moral or ethical means.

If the question, rather, is -- how can you fly in airspace with outdated procedures, then the answer is simply that you need to coordinate with the controllers and make sure they know that whatever you have loaded into your plane is an older version of the procedure (or that you simply don't have the one you've been assigned).  That may involve being cleared to follow the outdated version, reassigned a different procedure, or, may involve flying vectors and altitudes instead.

In some places, the US being one, it is still possible to fly using conventional (i.e. radio-based) navigation only -- it's getting more difficult with each passing AIRAC cycle, but it's still doable.  That would require some knowledge about how that kind of navigation works, and some research on how to construct non-RNAV routing from point A to point B (because SimBrief and other online sources surely won't do it) -- but if you're into that kind of thing, it's a fun challenge to plan and execute.

[Luke Kolin]

1 hour ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

I mean, if the question is how you can update your navigation data without paying for a subscription to a navigation data service, the answer is that you can't -- not, at least, through any moral or ethical means.

Speaking for the United States, this is not the case. The Nav Data is essentially a phone book for navigation aids and as such is not an original work and therefore not eligible for copyright protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Service_Co.

Cheers!

[Robert Shearman Jr]

"Legal" and "moral or ethical" are different concepts.

[Luke Kolin]

2 hours ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

"Legal" and "moral or ethical" are different concepts.

That's true, especially when it comes to selling someone something that their tax dollars have already paid to produce.

Cheers!

[Robert Shearman Jr]

What would you recommend to the original poster, then?

[Lauri Uusitalo]

In US you are be able to get navdata free. May require some diy.

[Simon Kelsey]

18 hours ago, Luke Kolin said:

Speaking for the United States, this is not the case. The Nav Data is essentially a phone book for navigation aids and as such is not an original work and therefore not eligible for copyright protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Service_Co.

Cheers!

Which bit though?

The data itself is one thing. The curation, validation and compilation of said data in to a format readable by an FMS, perhaps with the addition of supplementary data etc quite another (as pointed out in the case you quote).

Data for US (only) navigation aids and terminal procedures is available for free, if you are able to compile it in to a useful format, which I suspect is where most people will struggle.

[Luke Kolin]

4 hours ago, Simon Kelsey said:

Which bit though? The data itself is one thing. The curation, validation and compilation of said data in to a format readable by an FMS, perhaps with the addition of supplementary data etc quite another (as pointed out in the case you quote).

Changing the format or adding data should not create enough novelty to create an original work, any more than republishing Shakespeare in a e-book format.

Don't get me wrong - I think Navigraph provides a tremendous service and I've subscribed to them for many years. I would hate to see them go away. I'm merely pointing out that their moat as a business is not one of legal protection, but a more practical one of convenience. I'm paying them $2 or so a month to aggregate and convert the data, provide it in a format for the several different aircraft I own and then install it (mostly) into the correct place. They're a good example of what I have suggested for years - make a good, convenient product and you will get money with or without IP protection or DRM nonsense. (I'll also suggest that a good way to get more customers is having someone get a one-off set and see first-hand the value.)

But let's also not claim that they have some sort of rights over or can restrict what we do with the navdata. They have as much of an IP stake in that data as I do in the works of the Bard.

Cheers!

[Reinhard Ziegler]

AIRAC data doesnt change every month and if I had to take a guess, I'd say your navdata is accurately enough up to date when you're refreshing this data set just 2 or 3 times a year.

Unfortunately, Navigraph doesnt offer to buy AIRACS every other month when you think it's time to do so but forces you into a subscription plan, which is bad.

 

If your AIRAC date is outdated, just add at the beginning of your remarks section in your flightplan RMK/AIRAC2106 or so, in order to give the ATC the chance to see it at first glance in your flightstrip, that he assigns you an older SID or whatever.

Speaking of SIDS: When you are assigned a SID for departure and ATC tells you "clrd YXZ via MOTIX4C departure" and you only have got MOTIX3C in your FMC, you're safe to use the older one in 99% of all cases. Quite often, SIDs get renamed because of minor altitude restriction changes or a slightly different flight path. Not a big deal imho. Just ask the ATC if you may use MOTIX3C just to let people know what you're capable to do and it's not an issue at all 😉

Edited December 1, 2021 at 10:05 PM by Reinhard Ziegler

[Tobias Dammers]

1 hour ago, Reinhard Ziegler said:

Unfortunately, Navigraph doesnt offer to buy AIRACS every other month when you think it's time to do so but forces you into a subscription plan, which is bad.

You can get a subscription and immediately cancel it, which gives you 1 month of access. It's just not worth doing that every other month, because the monthly subscriptions are so much more expensive that you might as well get a yearly FMS-only subscription instead. But if you're OK with getting a new AIRAC only 2-3 times a year, the monthly subscriptions will be cheaper.

[john charles]

In the past i have plotted a sid or star from charts to gps..Only did this if i did not have relevent route and to be fair worked very well..The downside is it takes a age to plot but can be done..

[Torben Andersen]

I'd rather look at it like this: Why spend $$$ for addons (scenery, planes, etc) to make a better emmersion and then not spend some money on a subscription, which really is worth every penny on every flight you make? Having an updated AIRAC database is a pleassure on every flight you make ANYWHERE in the World, while a scenery for a particular airport is "only" nice, when you actually fly into/out of that airport.

[Tobias Dammers]

13 hours ago, john charles said:

In the past i have plotted a sid or star from charts to gps..Only did this if i did not have relevent route and to be fair worked very well..The downside is it takes a age to plot but can be done..

You can also plot the route in skyvector, and then export is as GPX or some other format that your sim and aircraft of choice understand. Much faster than entering lat/lon coords into the sim one by one.

But there's still a problem - whenever ATC assigns you a different procedure than what you expected, you will struggle to redo the programming on a short notice, and when it comes to STARs and transitions in tight European airspaces, where it is often impossible to predict which one you'll get, and you may even be recleared for a different transition and approach when you're already on it, this approach is fairly hopeless, and all you can do when that happens is say "unable due outdated nav data, request vectors", which will of course be accommodated as best possible, but if you do it in the middle of a busy event, it will elicit a bit of ATC sweat and some mild eye-rolling, or at least ferocious shrugging, from other pilots in the area.

[john charles]

Yes to above ..but if atis does not change your sid or star you ploted should be ok ..if patterns change then its mr vectors from that gps plot as its to much time to re configure to gps from charts..This is just a fix from that missing star or sid if airac is not updated enough..