Centralised Overview of booked ATC sessions

[Alex Ying]

For the US, it would be nice if Simbrief, PFPX, and other sources highlighted or somehow emphasized sources like the FAA NFDC. Individual ARTCCs on VATSIM may have alternate preferred routes via LOAs, but the vast majority of the FAA PRDs are more consistently correct than just the most-frequently or most-recently filed routes on VATSIM.

[Torben Andersen]

I'm not having problem with the tool. Some pilots have, but they can be taught. Wether or not they both is another thing. But if they don't, I don't care much to give them proper atc, as atc sticks to some rules and regulations. The US has a lot fewer restrictions than in Europe - good for you, but flying the right way in Europe is a lot more than click and play. The problem with Simbrief in my view, is that some pilots might think, that if you use Simbrief (or any other FP tool) then everything is done properly. And if they the meet a controller, who gives you a revised flightplan everything comes to a halt, as theSimbrief OFP no longer is valid. Vatsim is about learning, not just flying freely around. Atc might as well be abandonned, if you don't want to learn the rules.

[Mateusz Zymla]

1 hour ago, Karl Mathias Moberg said:

Sorry, we have completely different ideas here then. I cannot emphasize how much I disagree with this. Dispatchers have 2-3 years of training to learn the trade, and they do the same routes day in and day out. A lot of flightsimmers, try new routes regularly, and cannot be expected to know every detail of the world, or even Europe.

I have not a 3 years of training, yet as Single Pilot Ops IFR PIC (non-airline) I have to plan all by myself lol. Not all operations are airliners.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean flight simmers have to go through maps and restrictions of the countries they want to fly because it takes hours to plan properly. That's why tools like simbrief have great responsibility to deliver correct flight plans. Pilots also should be taught how to quickly replan, verify the plan etc. At least in basic meaning.

Edited February 2, 2022 at 04:16 PM by Mateusz Zymla

[Karl Mathias Moberg]

2 hours ago, Torben Andersen said:

I'm not having problem with the tool. Some pilots have, but they can be taught. Wether or not they both is another thing. But if they don't, I don't care much to give them proper atc, as atc sticks to some rules and regulations. The US has a lot fewer restrictions than in Europe - good for you, but flying the right way in Europe is a lot more than click and play. The problem with Simbrief in my view, is that some pilots might think, that if you use Simbrief (or any other FP tool) then everything is done properly. And if they the meet a controller, who gives you a revised flightplan everything comes to a halt, as theSimbrief OFP no longer is valid. Vatsim is about learning, not just flying freely around. Atc might as well be abandonned, if you don't want to learn the rules.

You have a problem with the routes the tool is spitting out to you by default. Those can be changed, the tool just need to understand the restrictions which absolutely can be automated. 

[Torben Andersen]

I think, I'll stop here. You obviously don't understand the point, that Simbrief makes a default route based on popularity and not by careful checking with route restriction. Unfortunately inexperienced pilots just choose the first route comming up and think everything is ok. If you care you can have a look at a document I've posted elsewhere on the forum.

Tkae care out there.

regards

[Felix Holmertz]

 I ( the developer of statsim.net btw 🙂 ) agree that a central booking system would be really good and should be an fairly easy task to accomplish.

This was posted in the Vatsim dev discord a few weeks ago so maybe something coming up now after velocity release.

[Alex Ying]

2 hours ago, Torben Andersen said:

I think, I'll stop here. You obviously don't understand the point, that Simbrief makes a default route based on popularity and not by careful checking with route restriction. Unfortunately inexperienced pilots just choose the first route comming up and think everything is ok. If you care you can have a look at a document I've posted elsewhere on the forum.

Tkae care out there.

regards

You're both trying to get at the same problem, which is that the default 1st route it pops up is bad (sometimes, more often in someplaces than others).

One solution is to make sure that that 1st route is correct more often by doing things like making sure the database reflects restrictions and other constraints that it doesn't currently account for. Another is to increase pilot competence levels so that they can recognize a bad route when they see it and take the appropriate measure to fix it.

Both would work, but fixing the central database is a lot easier than getting thousands of pilots to pay more attention to route planning when a lot of them can barely even fly their planes to begin with.

[Mateusz Zymla]

9 hours ago, Alex Ying said:

You're both trying to get at the same problem, which is that the default 1st route it pops up is bad (sometimes, more often in someplaces than others).

One solution is to make sure that that 1st route is correct more often by doing things like making sure the database reflects restrictions and other constraints that it doesn't currently account for. Another is to increase pilot competence levels so that they can recognize a bad route when they see it and take the appropriate measure to fix it.

Both would work, but fixing the central database is a lot easier than getting thousands of pilots to pay more attention to route planning when a lot of them can barely even fly their planes to begin with.

It's as simple as to take the most proposed routes, sort by distance, go with validation one by one and take the closest one. But it should be done by simbrief, inexperienced pilots doesn't know it!

[Torben Andersen]

Only problem - the AIRAC updates every month, so the routes ought to be checked monthly as well. As such a database grows over time, who's got the time to do it?

Edited February 3, 2022 at 10:03 AM by Torben Andersen

[Martijn Rammeloo]

Only validate the top xx% of all flown routes? Divide the workload? That is why I suggested that VATSIM should take some responsibility. 

[Andre Bohni]

42 minutes ago, Torben Andersen said:

Only problem - the AIRAC updates every month, so the routes ought to be checked monthly as well. As such a database grows over time, who's got the time to do it?

that Datebase exist allready, https://grd.aero-nav.com/ and you can also get direct Result on the Simbriefpage.

[Reinhard Ziegler]

15 minutes ago, Andre Bohni said:

that Datebase exist allready, https://grd.aero-nav.com/ and you can also get direct Result on the Simbriefpage.

 

Does this database even turn results? 😄

I've searched LOWW-LIME and LIPE-LPPD the other day, twice resulting in "no route found".

https://www.eurofpl.eu/finder# on the other hand found routes both ATC and Eurocontrol was happy about.

 

@Karl Mathias Moberg I know this page is just for EU routes.

When I used to fly in NA, I've just used https://de.flightaware.com/statistics/ifr-route/ and I never had a problem with ATC and incorrect routings.


I don't know about other continents though...

[Andre Bohni]

well at the Momment there are 24300 Validated Routes in the Datebase, and thats about 50% of the Routes in the datebase 🙂

[Kirk Christie]

The route planning thing is impossible to perfect. 

Here are 3 real world flights between the 19th of January and the 3rd of Febuary between EFHK and LPPT from Flight radar. These could all be in sim brief as a suggested route, but how does some one like me who lives in Australia and flys gobally know if these good routes or bad routes based on what Sim Brief has presented to me. I could look at the first one and think that it is a bad route because of the way it goes.

Some one mentioned eariler about weather deviaton routes, if I find that route 3 days later how do I know that it was a route that was used for weather deviation?

Updated AIRAC's only serve to check to see iff the airway/waypoint still exists, it does nothing to check if the route is an ATS prefered route.

LOA's etc, they arent for pilots, no pilot can be expected to know that FIR 1 has an agreement with FIR 2 where traffic should cross, and at what level, LOA's serve as a time saver, for ATC's but they are not hard and fast. ATC's can always coordinate with the next controller, "heads up ABC123 will enter your sector at waypoint XXXX" 

In any case this conversation has deviated from the orginal question.

Edited February 4, 2022 at 09:11 AM by Kirk Christie

[Martijn Rammeloo]

It may be impossible to perfect, but it is quite possible to improve, by simply offering (at least) one validated route for the most popular adep/ades pairs.

[Torben Andersen]

23 minutes ago, Kirk Christie said:

The route planning thing is impossible to perfect. 

Here are 3 real world flights between the 19th of January and the 3rd of Febuary between EFHK and LPPT from Flight radar. These could all be in sim brief as a suggested route, but how does some one like me who lives in Australia and flys gobally know if these good routes or bad routes based on what Sim Brief has presented to me. I could look at the first one and think that it is a bad route because of the way it goes.

Some one mentioned eariler about weather deviaton routes, if I find that route 3 days later how do I know that it was a route that was used for weather deviation?

Updated AIRAC's only serve to check to see iff the airway/waypoint still exists, it does nothing to check if the route is an ATS prefered route.

LOA's etc, they arent for pilots, no pilot can be expected to know that FIR 1 has an agreement with FIR 2 where traffic should cross, and at what level, LOA's serve as a time saver, for ATC's but they are not hard and fast. ATC's can always coordinate with the next controller, "heads up ABC123 will enter your sector at waypoint XXXX" 

In any case this conversation has deviated from the orginal question.

I, too, think we should take the discussion to another place. I suggest "How I do my flight planning" in the Charts, Navigation and Flightplanning section.

[Gunnar Lindahl]

I'd love to see one central system which talks to all other local systems via one simple interface (presumably some sort of API).

Who wants to do it?

[Ross Carlson]

3 hours ago, Gunnar Lindahl said:

Who wants to do it?

Cue the crickets. 😄

[Martijn Rammeloo]

3 hours ago, Gunnar Lindahl said:

I'd love to see one central system which talks to all other local systems via one simple interface (presumably some sort of API).

Who wants to do it?

IMO, this already exists: VATBOOK. At least from a VACC perspective, it is very easy to insert/update/delete local bookings into it. The developer is still active on the network, I believe. I cannot see any reason not to promote this system as the VATSIM booking system.

Martijn

 

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Martijn Rammeloo said:

The developer is still active on the network, I believe

Yes, Michal Rok hosts VATBOOK as part of "vroute". He is still actively supporting it.

[Felix Holmertz]

To my understandning he is going to shut it down soon. Even though the API works it is very old technology wise and also no authentication is needed. Some VACCs are also using it for purposes other then ATC bookings. For example VATUK is using it for pilot training sessions.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Thanks for the headsup, that's the first time I hear about this. That will be sad when vroute will be shut down, as it contains lots of flightplan routes that are checked and validated for correctness with every new AIRAC = much better quality than Simbrief.

[Alexander Cohrs]

Very sad, spend quite a good amount of time adding routes there. But I am not complaining, vRoute has been a big help over years!