Are hypersonic aircraft allowed on Vatsim?

[Danny Moore]

Now that the new Top Gun Mavrick DLC is out for MSFS2020 a new popular aircraft is the hypersonic aircraft that can reach Mach 10 and altitudes higher than 150,000 feet. I've seen a few DCT to DCT flights and was wondering if were allowed to fly this plane on the network. I know planes like Concorde and other supersonic aircraft usually fly IFR routes with ATC control. I'm sure if were in centers airspace will need to contact them but what about the airspace above them? Just looking for clarification to the policy if there is one. This plane would make for some interesting flights and I don't think it falls under any restrictions.

Edited May 27, 2022 at 10:24 PM by Danny Moore

[Matthew Bartels]

In short, no.

Expect a further explanation tomorrow.

[Joshua Jenkins]

And here. We. Go.

[Lauri Uusitalo]

I wonder if I can use teleportation on Vatsim? It would be great to skip the tedious flying part altogether...

[Andreas Fuchs]

Some pilots would like to fly long distances without having the time to sit there at snail-speed. I understand it. And when flying at FL660 they will not bother anyone. When descending back into busy airspace they will have to slow down to subsonic speeds in any case and won't be a nuisance.

[Alistair Thomson]

1 hour ago, Lauri Uusitalo said:

t would be great to skip the tedious flying part altogether

At least with a sim you have the option to accelerate. Pity the poor real world pilots who can't do that. Flying for hours on end with precious little to do is painful, but it's your choice.

20 hours ago, Josh Jenk said:

And here. We. Go.

I'm prepared to wait to see what Matthew says, and refuse to pre-judge.

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Alistair Thomson said:

Pity the poor real world pilots who can't do that. Flying for hours on end with precious little to do is painful, but it's your choice.

Don't worry, we make tons of money for every extra hour that we fly, it makes it worth it 😄

Edited May 29, 2022 at 02:42 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Joshua Jenkins]

12 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

I'm prepared to wait to see what Matthew says, and refuse to pre-judge.

Oh I know. It was a quote from the movie lol

[Tim Simpson]

Of course the answer is going to be no.  

-- Allow fictitious virtual airlines.  Check.
-- Allow made up call signs from Twitch streamers.  Check.
-- Allow pilots to ignore weather, and fly VFR into airspace that should be closed to them because it's reporting IFR conditions.  Check.
-- Allow the retired Concorde full access to the skies, with no restrictions of supersonic flight the real aircraft abided by.  Check.
-- Allow all manner of made up, no basis in reality, aircraft on the network.  Check.

Engage the fun governor, and throttle back the enjoyment of a new aircraft, by not allowing an aircraft from MFS on the network.  Check.  😆

I wonder if this is what MS/Asobo expects from a MFS launch partner?  

 

[Alistair Thomson]

12 hours ago, Josh Jenk said:

Oh I know. It was a quote from the movie lol

🙂

[Alistair Thomson]

54 minutes ago, Tim Simpson said:

Engage the fun governor

That's actually the point. VATSIM is surely entitled to decide the sorts of fun it will encourage on the network. Some virtual pilots think that crashing dodgems-style into other aircraft is fun, while others don't. If a member decides that their own brand of fun isn't being supplied, they are welcome to try elsewhere, and that move will benefit both the member and the network.

[Matisse VanWezer]

 

[Tim Simpson]

1 hour ago, Alistair Thomson said:

That's actually the point. VATSIM is surely entitled to decide the sorts of fun it will encourage on the network. Some virtual pilots think that crashing dodgems-style into other aircraft is fun, while others don't. If a member decides that their own brand of fun isn't being supplied, they are welcome to try elsewhere, and that move will benefit both the member and the network.

I'm not taking a poke at you personally Alistair, when I say that this is typical of any "management" in todays world.  Instead of trusting the members to do the right thing, and then dealing with any bad apples on a case by case basis, the immediate easy way out, is to promulgate a rule that just bans it for everyone.  Do you think a person who's been an active member for a decade or more, is suddenly going to spin out, and go nuts?  The answer is of course no, they won't.  Yes, VATSIM can decide what's allowed, but it's such a double standard.  It's OK to take the Concorde, modify the flight model power, and go ripping across the country, VFR, at Mach 2.1, but Mach 10 above 60K feet is considered egregious?

[Alistair Thomson]

21 hours ago, Tim Simpson said:

this is typical of any "management" in todays world

No problem: I don't take your comments personally at all, but thanks anyway. 🙂

So what would you put in place of some form of management? And is the relaxation of rules as per VSOP-approved activity insufficient, or is that going too far?

 

Edited May 31, 2022 at 01:43 PM by Alistair Thomson
Typoed VSOP as VSOA :)

[Andrew Crowley]

I would be interested to see some detailed examples for this statement: 

"This is because high speed or high-altitude operations can have an immediate negative impact on other users’ VATSIM experience."

I wonder how? It's hypothetical for me as these types of ops don't interest me, but I AM interested in a realistic simulation of the NAS, and as these ops do occur in reality, it seems they'd add some interesting variety to Vatsim.  I have in real life been planned / re-routed around SpaceX ops, for example. 

Obviously folks doing this willy-nilly without proper coordination would be a mess, but with a proper flight plan and the appropriate clearance to re-enter controlled airspace, where would be the harm? 

[Lauri Uusitalo]

Honest question, why would you want to do non-realistic operations on VATSIM for any other reason than "look at me" or to cause havoc?

[Torben Andersen]

Perhaps a space simulator network would be more suitable in this case.

[Lauri Uusitalo]

3 hours ago, Torben Andersen said:

Perhaps a space simulator network would be more suitable in this case.

I thought so too when I asked about teleportation, not as time acceleration, but as a mean to jump from gate to gate...

[Tim Simpson]

17 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

No problem: I don't take your comments personally at all, but thanks anyway. 🙂

So what would you put in place of some form of management? And is the relaxation of rules as per VSOP-approved activity insufficient, or is that going too far?

 

Management is fine, and quite honestly, necessary.  I guess the hypersonic sonic flight issue could be boiled down to a special operation issue in general.  Let's look at this from another angle.  Every day in the U.S., there are hundreds of actual HEMS helicopter flights, and hundreds more currency training HEMS helicopter flights.  These flights are considered special operations on VATSIM, yet in the real world, controllers facilitate their movement.  The Washington DC area is rife with helo ops every day.  So, if I want to fly a helicopter, and simulate some HEMS operations on the network, I have to join an approved VSO.  If there isn't a VSO that meets my needs, I then have to go through the process of creating one, and have it recognized by VATSIM.

Now, any Joe Blow can grab an airliner, jump on the network, and try to fit in as an ace pilot.  Why not require all airline operations to be conducted by virtual airlines then?  Require everyone who wants to fly an airliner, to be part of a partnered virtual airline, just like everyone who wants to do a helicopter HEMS flight has to join a VSO.

The enjoyment of the network is clearly slanted toward airline operations, but the enjoyment of the more niche pilot operations is no less important.  I find it kind of off putting that some pilot members are so self centered, they're afraid their personal enjoyment might get degraded, if real world ops that happen every single day, are allowed on network, without a bunch of arbitrary, and frankly silly restrictions, of joining a secondary organization if one even exists for your desired type of flight.  These are the same pilots who miss ATC calls repeatedly, "can't find" a waypoint in their FMC, show up to do pattern work at a heavily attended event, and have a TV on in the background while transmitting.  😆

For my HEMS flights on network, I'll ask the controller if they're down with it, and are OK with the ops.  Most are fine with it, and enjoy the different aspect of helo ops, including both on, and off airport movement.  But, having to do this "back alley coat hanger" type of operation, shouldn't have to happen.  It should be an operation open to all members, without restriction, without joining a VSO, other than following IRL procedures.   So should other types of "special operations" like hypersonic flight; open, not restricted, expected operations matching IRL procedures, and personal responsibility. 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 at 04:13 PM by Tim Simpson

[Tyler Wood]

10 hours ago, Lauri Uusitalo said:

Honest question, why would you want to do non-realistic operations on VATSIM for any other reason than "look at me" or to cause havoc?

This is truly my question as well.

As someone with a visual impairment, it's frustrating enough having to ask for a reposition to a runway in a private message, especially during busy events. Controllers have been fantastic and especially at the more familiar airports it's now a non issue.

With all of that being said, I can already see this turning into someone who doesn't have any idea how to control their aircraft descending at mach 5 with an approach controler. Just seems like even more frustration waiting to happen - with the release of the PMDG 737, md80 and the new a320 there's plenty of this happening already especially in huge events featuring live streamers. I digress.

[Torben Andersen]

@Tim Simpson I agree, that normal operations like the helicopter operations you mention, should be more easily accecible than now. However, I do not consider hypersonic flight a normal operation as of now (who knows the future, though). Asking VATSIM to facilitate all kinds of "weird/special" operations is in my mind not the purpose of the VATSIM network. I've had enough of hyperspace jumps (a la Star Trek or Star Wars) when planes out of nothingness pops into my worrd and asks for atc - or worse - doesn't want atc, but only flies for their own benefit. The day, hypersonic flights are incorporated into average day procedures, I'll welcome them.

Edited May 31, 2022 at 09:04 PM by Torben Andersen

[Kirk Christie]

HEMS is a tricky one, because the only operation that is restricted is SAR, you can fly from Point A to Point B with out needing to be in a VSO you can identify as STS/MED1 but that would be down to the controller if they give you special treatment, you can fly from hospital to hospital (I know a lot of ours have ICAO codes for the helicopter pads at hospitals).

You can also hover over an area for 20 mins with out being questioned (winching operations) or land in a park/field/roadway etc you can even fly up the coast line as shark/surf patrol. IMO they should just remove that from being a VSO operation because there are so many ways around it, from everyone else's point of view you are just flying from point A to point B or Point A to point A.

There is no restriction on agriculture operations like crop dusting, and I know a large number of people have taken to doing survey flights in our area, that being said, fire fighting operations is restricted, what if any thing is the difference between crop dusting, and water bombing? There is defiantly cause for review of the VSO policy.

[David Bromage]

4 hours ago, Kirk Christie said:

HEMS is a tricky one, because the only operation that is restricted is SAR, you can fly from Point A to Point B with out needing to be in a VSO you can identify as STS/MED1 but that would be down to the controller if they give you special treatment

I have personally been on an arrival when an air ambulance reporting MED1 checked in with APP. There wasn't a lot of traffic so the controller decided to run with it. I was given free speed below 10,000 ft which as fine with me!

[Daniel Mckee]

Talk about hypersonic, I notice how quickly a discussion goes off topic heading subject matter😄

 

[Tim Simpson]

13 hours ago, Kirk Christie said:

HEMS is a tricky one, because the only operation that is restricted is SAR, you can fly from Point A to Point B with out needing to be in a VSO you can identify as STS/MED1 but that would be down to the controller if they give you special treatment, you can fly from hospital to hospital (I know a lot of ours have ICAO codes for the helicopter pads at hospitals).

 

● Aeromedical Evacuations**

That's right from the "special ops" policy.  While you are correct, you can hide it from the network, by just making the flight, it'd be nice to not have to do the cloak and dagger part of it.  I guess that's the VATSIM version of "don't ask, don't tell."  Honestly, I don't think anyone doing HEMS flights expects, or wants, special handling.  I know I've never asked for preferred handling.  The overall VATSIM policy that  states nobody gets preferred handling regardless of callsign or operation, already covers this question.  That policy, of course is a lie, because the minute you put restrictions on arbitrary "special ops", you then have created preferred handling for the things you have anointed as "normal ops," but I digress.    

Edited June 1, 2022 at 12:23 PM by Tim Simpson