Contacting controllers for clarification

[Kirk Royster]

Context:  Orlando and surrounding airports (KISM, KORL for example), and the delineation between MIA CTR and JXN CTR, which appears to cut straight through KMCO (Orlando Intl) and between KORL (Orlando Exec) and KISM (Kissimmee).  Business jets frequently use KORL and KISM, with common Arrivals with KMCO.

What is the appropriate method to contact and get clarification regarding what center has the controlling jurisdiction, and if indeed it's a different center for KISM (which is basically a handful of miles from KORL)?  I've checked the ARTCC web sites, and typically they do not provide contact information.  I hesitate to contact them in the air to request clarification.  Doubt this will be the last time like this one.  I believe I heard one ATC person a bit frustrated that they were getting texted by a pilot on the ground, I may have mis-interpreted that.

Is it usually or always (in the US for example) the case that I can get this from the IRL (in real life) documents?  My assumption is that the delineations on SimAware (for example) are not always exactly aligned with the IRL delineations.

Appreciate the input.

 

Edited August 20, 2022 at 10:12 PM by Kirk Royster

[Kirk Royster]

Strange that I find different ARTCC's depending on where I look.

1)  airnav.com shows ARTCC as Jacksonville Center for KISM (Kissimmee), which would be the same as for KORL (the executive apt a few miles north of KMCO) and for KMCO itself.

2)  foreflight shows ARTCC as Miami Center for KISM (Kissimmee), and Jacksonville for KORL and KMCO, which aligns to the delineation shown when these ARTCC's are open for business, on SimAware.

Given that foreflight is used by a large mass of real pilots for daily operations, I'm going to have to lean to foreflight on this one.  But would appreciate any additional perspectives on this.  I will indeed take a few seconds to ask one of the centers during my next flight when they are operating, and will report back.

 

 

[Don Desfosse]

There are lots of places to find that info.  Airnav is a good one.  And correct.  It's Jacksonville Center.

The best source in my opinion is the A/FD.

Curious why you say Foreflight shows ARTCC as Miami Center for KISM.  Where/what page are you looking at that says that?  Because when I pull up KISM in Foreflight, there are several clues that tell me that Jacksonville ARTCC is the controlling ARTCC.  Just a few of these include:

1. Airports page > Chart Supplement > A/FD
2. Maps page > Chart Supplement > A/FD
3. All of the approach plates show Orlando Approach as the controlling approach facility.  Orlando Approach is "under" Jacksonville Center.

I suspect you're looking at the ARTCC boundary line as drawn on the Maps page.  However, remember that airspace is three-dimensional, and as demonstrated in cases like KISM, one ARTCC may have "control" over an airport on the surface, where another ARTCC may have control over an aircraft 30,000 feet directly above that airport.

In any case, the A/FD is likely always your best resource.

[Kirk Royster]

5 minutes ago, Don Desfosse said:

There are lots of places to find that info.  Airnav is a good one.  And correct.  It's Jacksonville Center.

The best source in my opinion is the A/FD.

Curious why you say Foreflight shows ARTCC as Miami Center for KISM.  Where/what page are you looking at that says that?  Because when I pull up KISM in Foreflight, there are several clues that tell me that Jacksonville ARTCC is the controlling ARTCC.  Just a few of these include:

1. Airports page > Chart Supplement > A/FD
2. Maps page > Chart Supplement > A/FD
3. All of the approach plates show Orlando Approach as the controlling approach facility.  Orlando Approach is "under" Jacksonville Center.

 

Following is where I find it (web interface):

Edited August 21, 2022 at 04:15 AM by Kirk Royster

[Don Desfosse]

Wow!  I'd say you have identified an opportunity for improvement for Foreflight 🙂

 

[Kirk Royster]

Ok, I will engage Foreflight support to get this to them.  Appreciate your feedback.

 

[Kirk Royster]

Following are the details I obtained from my inquiry with ForeFlight.  Difference between "Charted Boundary" and "Surface ARTCC boundaries."  Great educational details here with this specific scenario.  What's shown on SimAware is the "Charted Boundary" or "Boundry" as eNASR specifies.  But it's not the controlling center per se.  Learn something every day.

The ARTCC boundaries are stratified by altitude. KISM is within the charted boundaries of MIAMI ARTC and that is what appears in the screenshot you attached.. However, there are surface ARTCC boundaries, which determine flight plan routing and handling, KISM is within Jacksonville ARTCC and part of the Orlando TRACON. The FAA lists each airport in their database and can show two ARTCC, one in whose ARTCC boundary the airport falls in, and another ARTCC that has flight plan responsibility. Charted boundaries are for the relevant ARTCC, but often the surface airspace is designated to be controlled by the local TRACON up to their top altitude and then switches to the charted boundary above the TRACON airspace. The surface boundaries are not charted, but are published on this FAA website (at my request), see https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/Center_Surface_Boundaries/.

Here is the FAA NASR record for KISM showing that the ARTCC Boundary is ZMA (Miami ARTCC) and the Control ARTCC is ZJX (Jacksonville ARTCC). So even though KISM is inside Miami ARTCC airspace, flight plans must be routed to Jacksonville ARTCC. If you were to depart VFR planning to pickup your flight plan from center, you would need to contact Jacksonville Center and if you contacted Miami Center, they would not have access.

[Kirk Royster]

So this then means that when I'm flying in from the north and ZJX center (and Orlando Approach) are not open, I do not contact ZMA center on my approach into KISM, even though the Boundary is shown to include KISM.  Clarity!

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Correct.  Similarly, Tampa area satellites DO belong to ZMA.  Philly area satellites belong to ZNY despite appearing to belong to ZDC.  Such border cases are actually not uncommon, but, indeed are hella confusing as you've seen!