All VATUSA and ARTCC rules have been recinded?

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

http://vatna.net/docs/NA_Policy_0505.pdf

VATNA Approved Policies

 

Referencing this policy, and referencing the "approved policy page". I am struck by the fact that there are no approved policies that exist. Given statments in the "purpose" section...

 

PURPOSE: To better manage local rules established with the Canada (VATCAN) and United States (VATUSA) Divisions the following process has been put in place. This approval process is mandatory and local rules / policies written or established outside of this process are invalid and in no way enforceable. The purpose of introducing this requirement is to:

 

Since all policies that ANY ARTCC has written previously are invalid, and un-enforceable, since they were in fact created outside of this policy, I have come to the following questions...

 

1) Since no APPROVED policies exist, how is an ARTCC to be run?

 

2) Does this mean that a controller may control at ANY position in North America?

 

3) Are all LOAs recinded?

 

4) Are all SOPs invalid?

 

These are just some of the questions.

 

Since it is clear that ANY policy that was created outside of this new policy is invalid, this means that until policies are signed off on, and published for reference, that the following statement is in fact correct.

 

There are no rules in VATNA anymore, any person may do any thing they wish in ANY sector.

 

There is currently nothing VATNA, on down can do about it.

 

This also applies to VATUSA, since their policies have also been created outside of this policy.

 

This leads to another question...

 

Does VATUSA even exist anymore?

 

It seems that all divisions beneath VATNA have been rendered useless. So it now appears that the only regulations that are enforceable are those from the BOG, and VATNA.

 

Food for thought,

James Jason Vodnansky

Edited March 8, 2007 at 07:20 PM by Guest

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol

[Daniel Hill 810430]

To be followed by two teaspoons of

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorazine,

 

then perhaps a tablespoon of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenobarbital

 

and finally a good dose of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality.

[Daniel Hill 810430]

There are no rules in VATNA anymore, any person may do any thing they wish in ANY sector.

 

In that case, let's go fly!

[Lee Hetherington 822071]

Henny Penny, the sky is falling!

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

Ian, Daniel,

 

I suppose I am missing something. I do not understand your posts.

 

Are you implying I am a drug addict?

 

Are you implying I need to take these drugs?

 

How are these responses related to the questions at hand?

 

Again, I guess I am missing something here.

 

Thanks,

James Jason Vodnansky

[Daniel Hill 810430]

I suppose I am missing something. I do not understand your posts.

 

I was going to make the same comment on your diatribe.

 

Give it a rest, will you?

[Richard Green 810012]

NONE of the rules have been recinded... they just need to be reviewed as it says.

 

Jason perhaps you need to take a break from VATSIM as you seem to see everything as a fight.

[Scott Johnston 890281]

What they're implying, is that you need to get over it, and get a dose of reality. The world isn't ending, the sky isn't falling, just chill.

 

And I think everyone would appreciate it if you would stop spamming the forums with this nonsense that no one, but yourself, really cares about.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Does VATUSA even exist anymore?

 

It seems that all divisions beneath VATNA have been rendered useless. So it now appears that the only regulations that are enforceable are those from the BOG, and VATNA.

 

I see this very differently, apparently. I see this as VATNA trying to actively monitor what its Divisions are doing, moreso than it's done in the past.

 

I also would like to note, as Ian Elchitz noted in several replies, that all the VATNA policies are talking about Policy and Rules. There is a difference between Operating Procedures/LOAs and Rules. There is no mention of any SOP/LOA or anything in any of these policies. That has always been, and should always remain, at the hands of the ATMs and oversight by their local DATs.

 

As far as the execution, though, probably could have been done better. VATNA could have required a review of all the policies that ARTCCs and VATUSA has, and THEN posted the public list of Approved Policy. It looks like were just doing it backwards.

CHILL. Do you realize theres about a dozen posts now, from you? Do you also realize that while you have a valid concern, it makes you look like a crazy person, and damages your good will?

 

On another note, I do disagree with the Visiting Controller policy barring Rating requirements. Controllers need to get experience at one facility before they go hopping around at other places. I think that if you're an S-1, you shouldn't be looking for places to visit at, rather, you should be focusing on gaining experience at the place you chose as a home base. All too often, I've seen S-1 controllers bouncing around, wasting time, joining visiting rosters, and then never control or getting anything done....and then complain they have too many restrictions.

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

NONE of the rules have been recinded... they just need to be reviewed as it says.

 

Jason perhaps you need to take a break from VATSIM as you seem to see everything as a fight.

 

Richard,

 

Respectfully, please show me where it says that they just need to be reviewed. I can show where it says that "any policy written outside of this process are invalid..."

 

I read what is written, not what is intended. Big difference between the two. I do not know a writer's intent.

 

James Jason Vodnansky

810003

[Richard Green 810012]

I read what is written, not what is intended. Big difference between the two. I do not know a writer's intent.

 

James Jason Vodnansky

810003

 

Jason -

 

As Ian pointed out... I emailed him and got a very detailed response that he could care less about SOPs & LOAs, its about ARTCCs that attempt to exclude people.

 

 

or read below.....

 

The policy does not address ATC coordination, such as LOAs between centers or procedural matters. It only addresses rules such as transfers, visiting controller policy, position restrictions and other rules related to how members are treated.

[Stephen Keskitalo 977981]

Mr. Vodnansky, I understand that you seem to think your whole world is being changed, but it really reflects poorly on you to carry on like this. Multiple threads really clutter up the place, and they sure don't seem to be helping to win you any support.

 

If you absolutely must rant, at least keep it to one thread. But better yet, just stop. If you quit your tirade now, there's still a chance that people will forget about it and respect you in the future.

 

Please consider.

[James Hudson 951027]

Mr. Vodnansky, I understand that you seem to think your whole world is being changed, but it really reflects poorly on you to carry on like this. Multiple threads really clutter up the place, and they sure don't seem to be helping to win you any support.

 

If you absolutely must rant, at least keep it to one thread. But better yet, just stop. If you quit your tirade now, there's still a chance that people will forget about it and respect you in the future.

 

Please consider.

 

Aggreed. HOW Does affect you? As you can see VATUSA is one of the most nicely ran Regions. Again what is your purpose in all of these post. This is a free organization to have fun, not pick out everything and say this is wrong.

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

I don't want people to forget about it. That is the whole point! I quite honestly could care less what people think of me.

 

I do this in an attempt to make things better for all involved. Too many people have forgotten where they come from, and far too many refuse to hold the managers, and directors, and yes the BoG accountable for their actions, or inactions, whichever the case may be.

 

The bottom line is that numerous policies were broken and are being broken still as I write this. Worse part is, no one seems to care but a select few of us who actually read the rules as they are written.

 

Apparently, ignorance really is bliss!

 

Good luck,

James Jason Vodnansky

[Mike Fries]

the real world Anchorage Center had their SOP cancelled due to a fluke, but even though there was technically no more "sector five" you just keep going with what it used to be...

[Richard Green 810012]

It would appear the only people who are complaining are the ones who stand to have certain policies changed... at least that would be my [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption based on the majority of the signatures... or maybe its just a big coincidence.

[Marko Savatic 825464]

I think that people are not reading what he is saying, but taking this as an attack.

 

For instance:

Since all policies that ANY ARTCC has written previously are invalid, and un-enforceable, since they were in fact created outside of this policy, I have come to the following questions...

 

1) Since no APPROVED policies exist, how is an ARTCC to be run?

 

2) Does this mean that a controller may control at ANY position in North America?

 

3) Are all LOAs recinded?

 

4) Are all SOPs invalid?

 

All he did was ask questions based on a new policy that was put into place by VATNA. What I will say is that I am fairly sure that the intentions were good on this policy, it was poorly worded and that is why this original post was made. Consider this:

 

When a supervisor gives out a suspension, they state which policy you are in violation of. Wether it is a VATSIM code of regulation, code of conduct or a more local rule, you have to be in violation of a policy somewhere, because they can't kick you for "because they feel like it."

 

The way that this rule was originally worded, to some people, they see all policies are rendered useless, and while they may have meant the visiting controlling policies or what not, all it said in the origina docomeent was "policies". Since there is no definitions of what constitutues a policy the way it was originally written, it was viewed as everything. This included local rules of where you can and cannont control, who may control those positions, how much training you need so on so forth. So, technically speaking, any Student 3 could log onto any center in VATUSA and work the traffic, since VATNA had esentially nullified all rules. If the ATM or another staff member would have asked him to step down, he could refuse since he was not in violation of any policy, since ALL local policies were deemed NULL by this VATNA policy. Wether this happened accidentally or intentionally

 

While some of you are probably ready to write back saying that I am flaming and ranting and how I should keep this in private e-mail, I think that you have not been reading what is trying to be said. I suggest doing this, go read the VATSIM Code of Regulations, go read the Code of Conduct, go read the policies setup by VATNA and VATUSA. You would really be surprised to see what kind of stuff you can find in there, all you have to do is read.

 

I also would like to note, as Ian Elchitz noted in several replies, that all the VATNA policies are talking about Policy and Rules. There is a difference between Operating Procedures/LOAs and Rules.

 

Yes, you are 100% right, there is a diffrence between Operation Procedures/LOAs and rules, but the VATNA policies fails to mention that. Here is what it specifically says:

To better manage local rules established with the Canada (VATCAN) and United States (VATUSA) Divisions the following process has been put in place. This approval process is mandatory and local rules / policies written or established outside of this process are invalid and in no way enforceable.

 

It says in there, "local rules/policies." There is nothing in there about rules previously existing are excempt of that, but simply says local rules written or established outside of this policy (including ones already established since it doesn't mention that) are INVALID and in NO WAY ENFORCEABLE.

[Andrew Doubleday]

The overall point being made was stated by this man right here:

 

The bottom line is that numerous policies were broken and are being broken still as I write this. Worse part is, no one seems to care but a select few of us who actually read the rules as they are written.

 

James Jason Vodnansky

 

... And I couldn't agree more.

 

AD

Edited March 9, 2007 at 02:37 PM by Guest

[Richard Green 810012]

 

Yes, you are 100% right, there is a diffrence between Operation Procedures/LOAs and rules, but the VATNA policies fails to mention that. Here is what it specifically says:

To better manage local rules established with the Canada (VATCAN) and United States (VATUSA) Divisions the following process has been put in place. This approval process is mandatory and local rules / policies written or established outside of this process are invalid and in no way enforceable.

 

It says in there, "local rules/policies." There is nothing in there about rules previously existing are excempt of that, but simply says local rules written or established outside of this policy (including ones already established since it doesn't mention that) are INVALID and in NO WAY ENFORCEABLE.

 

 

Right... it essentialy says you are members of VATSIM first and foremost, and while you can have local rules and regulations, they

can't be in conflict with the network-wide rules.

 

If you have a rule that says (for example) No one under the rank of C1 may be a visitor at ZAU, then that rule would be in conflict with VATSIM and deemed exclusionary.

 

Also, if you have a rule that applies differently to a visitor vs. a rostered member that also would be in violation... (for example, saying that A visitor must be a C1 to control a position that you let a rostered S3 control)

 

It might be a bit simpler if you would tell ALL of us which rules of yours you "fear" Craig is going to "change".

 

I have yet to see anyone say they were throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Edited March 9, 2007 at 03:30 PM by Guest

[Marko Savatic 825464]

I don't fear rules being changed, because they are all under scrutiny right now and INVALID until they are approved by VATNA. The way that this rule is written, since none of my policies or local rules have been approved by VATNA, they are ALL INVALID.

 

However, what I will say is this from the VATSIM CoR:

Section 3.06, part B Subparagraph 6.

 

6. Delegation of Authority: A Regional Director should not attempt to dictate or

run all aspects of day-to-day operations in the divisions which comprise his or

her region. Therefore, a Regional Director has a duty to delegate authority to

the heads of the divisions making up his or her region and should grant such

individuals broad discretion to run the day-to-day operations within their

division

[Richard Green 810012]

Marko -

 

Perhaps you need to talk to your interim-leader then and ask him his stance...

 

As it stands... Craig has to act if VATUSA refuses to.... (I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you would rather have VATUSA tell you that you have rules that are not in-line with VATSIM)

 

VATUSA can't have rules that superceede VATSIM rules pure and simple.

Edited March 9, 2007 at 02:45 PM by Guest

[Daniel Hill 810430]

10 Sing "This is the song that doesn't end,"

20 Sing "Yes it goes on and on, my friend."

30 Sing "Somebody started singing it, not knowing what it was,"

40 Sing "And they'll continue singing it forever"

50 Sing "Just because...."

60 Goto 10

[Richard Green 810012]

Dan you forgot to hit RUN

Edited March 9, 2007 at 02:59 PM by Guest

[Marko Savatic 825464]

VATUSA can't have rules that superceede VATSIM rules pure and simple.

 

But VATNA can have a rule that superceeds a VATSIM rule?