Still can't find complete flight plans for Europe

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

I've been searching everywhere—including in resources recommended by VATEUR and VATUK—and I cannot seem to find any complete flight plans anywhere.

 

I looked for EGLL-EGCC, which seemed simple enough, and all I could find was WOBUN DCT WELIN T420 TNT, with no mention of an arrival procedure, and there's no specific departure that matches WOBUN, although there's a long list of departures that have letters and numbers after them. I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume DCT means direct, since there's no navaid by that name that I know of.

 

Don't flights in Europe plan their arrival and departure procedures in advance? And what's the secret behind SIDs and STARs that have a short name followed by a digit and a letter? How do I know which one to pick?

[Anthony Sheehy 866297]

No, A flight plan must not include the SID or STAR as they are at the discretion of the Controller concerned and are dependant of current flow controls and runway(s) in use at the time and anything else the controller may be aware of but you are not. That can include, but not limited to, RW NOTAM restrictions, which VATSIM-UK have a habit of incorporating into their work.

 

You are expected to have all the charts for the SIDs and STARs available. There is nothing stopping you, after getting a clearance via a specific SID or STAR, to request a sqecific approach or a different departure. Just be happy if the controller says yes or no. For most Airports, if you specify the last fix of a SID you are almost certain to get that particular SID. Same with STARS, except (obviously) you specify the first fix on the STAR (the last being the runway in question!!!)

 

Enjoy, it's fun to get a Departure you've never done before...

[Anthony Sheehy 866297]

Oh, by the way - for WOBUN the following SIDs apply...

 

Westerlies WOBUN2G from 27L, WOBUN2F from 27R

Easterlies don't route via WOBUN, but BUZAD would be a close match BUZAD3J from 09R

 

If the wind is blowing from the East add BUZAD before WOBUN in your FP

 

There are no SIDs from 09L because of construction of T5 (another RW Notam incorporated into VATSIM-UK procs...)

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

How does one know that G designates 27L and that F designates 27R?

 

When I look at FlightAware, I see SIDs and STARs specified in the routing. I also know that European flight plans include them as well. So pilots are not simply waiting for ATC to hand them out at the last minute, which would throw quite a wrench into things like preflight reviews and checklists.

[Paul O'Donnell 969350]

If you are trying to find the charts for EGLL or EGCC, you could register at the AIS website and get them free, although I think you need to provide a UK address, I can't remember. But you can always provide a made up UK address.

 

http://www.ais.org.uk

 

To find out which SID or STAR I need to expect, I usually browse all the SID's and STAR's for the airport in question, working out which ones I may expect, as it gives me a better idea of the airport procedures.

Quite alot of STAR's in the UK take you to a point which will require vectoring if ATC is online.

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

I also know that European flight plans include them as well. So pilots are not simply waiting for ATC to hand them out at the last minute, which would throw quite a wrench into things like preflight reviews and checklists.

 

Wrong.

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

Anthony,

you have read more than once on these forums messages by real world pilots stating that the submitted flight plan route starts at the departure airport transition point selected by the pilot. In some airports, even major ones, you could be taxiing while getting your IFR clearance, leaving even less time for the crew to prepare. This is our profession.

 

I also know that European flight plans include them as well. So pilots are not simply waiting for ATC to hand them out at the last minute, which would throw quite a wrench into things like preflight reviews and checklists.

 

Wrong.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

I'm surprised that professionals would plan their flights on the taxiway. Must be fun to reprogram the FMC while holding short. And there's probably lots of empty space available in the FMC as well, since preprogrammed flight plans can't be used when the SID to be used depends on a last-minute roll of the dice.

[Florian Harms]

Well Antony,

at least you have some hints: the active departure runway, out of the Tower ATIS, your first waypoint at the end of the SID, so in many cases, the sid is clear. Some departures have different sids to the same exitpoint, which are choosen by the size of your aircraft. It is a different system indeed, but not that complicated. A short look in the charts help alot.

 

Cheers

 

Flo

[Anthony Sheehy 866297]

Besides, you don't get this info "on the taxiway", you get it when you request clearance. So you have the time and option to program that into your flightplan before contacting ground for taxi.

[Anthony Sheehy 866297]

As for Approach, which I am not so familiar with, I think* the en-route controller can give you a hint on what STAR to expect before handing you over to Approach. This gives you time to again program your FMC before hitting the final waypoint.

 

*Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

You can definitely request that.

 

As for Approach, which I am not so familiar with, I think* the en-route controller can give you a hint on what STAR to expect before handing you over to Approach. This gives you time to again program your FMC before hitting the final waypoint.

 

*Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi,

 

well, in the real world usually a STAR is officially filed most of the times. That means that you can carry on until the end of the filed STAR, unless instructed otherwise by ATC.

 

In real life also, you receive your IFR-clearance when requesting startup/pushback. However, at some airports the IFR-clearance is not available until you reach the runway for departure, because the local TWR has your clearance on request with the area control center/approach control sector you are departing into. In Farnborough, for example, we usually get our departure instructions only when reaching the holding point. Then, I have to admit, they are quite easy to brief, usually it is something like "maintain runway heading, climb altitude 2400ft".

 

I prefer starting up my engines and get going over being able to brief my departure 20 minutes before I takeoff. In the beginning this is quite stressfull, but once you got used to the aircraft and the crew coordination, this is really easy. Otherwise I can only join Florian in saying: you usually get what you expect to get, so in 90% of cases you will be flying the SID or STAR that you have expected, so not a big headache.

 

That's the real life! I did not just write "Wrong."

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

Gruess Gott Andreas,

I'd like to ask:

a. What is the meaning of the CLR-limit remark on STAR charts, usually at the transition fix?

b. How would, as example, a Lufthansa captain flying KLAX-EDDF know whether runway 25 or 7 would be used for approach 13 hours later, to select the STAR to file?

Thanks.

 

well, in the real world usually a STAR is officially filed most of the times. That means that you can carry on until the end of the filed STAR, unless instructed otherwise by ATC.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Opher,

 

to your question a.) my reply is, that whatever is filed (end of route with or without STAR) you can fly to the clearance limit of your filed flightplan (in case of COMM FAIL). Since ATC accepted it you can do so, everybody will know what you will do in case of. So, if I file a flightplan to EGCC ending at TNT (without a STAR), then TNT is my clearance limit. If I filed TNT DAYNE2A, then DAYNE is my clearance limit, easy, isn't it?

 

Regarding b.) a certain STAR is filed according to preferential runway OPS and the weather forecast. Based on this information one can make more than just a guess on which runway/STAR will be active.

 

For all my flights in Europe SIDs and STARs are pre-filed in my flightplans and I guess this is valid for all other operators.

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

Thanks very much Andreas.

Hi Opher,

 

to your question a.) my reply is, that whatever is filed (end of route with or without STAR) you can fly to the clearance limit of your filed flightplan (in case of COMM FAIL). Since ATC accepted it you can do so, everybody will know what you will do in case of. So, if I file a flightplan to EGCC ending at TNT (without a STAR), then TNT is my clearance limit. If I filed TNT DAYNE2A, then DAYNE is my clearance limit, easy, isn't it?

 

Regarding b.) a certain STAR is filed according to preferential runway OPS and the weather forecast. Based on this information one can make more than just a guess on which runway/STAR will be active.

 

For all my flights in Europe SIDs and STARs are pre-filed in my flightplans and I guess this is valid for all other operators.

[Vince Horan]

How does one know that G designates 27L and that F designates 27R?

 

When I look at FlightAware, I see SIDs and STARs specified in the routing. I also know that European flight plans include them as well. So pilots are not simply waiting for ATC to hand them out at the last minute, which would throw quite a wrench into things like preflight reviews and checklists.

 

As suggested on another response. Register at www.ais.org.uk (its free) and look at the charts, F is the designator for 27R departures, G for 27L and J for 09R. The actual runway allocation when on 27L/R is alternating each week before and after 3pm local. The allocation of arrival runway can be found at:

http://www.vatsim-uk.org/regions/capital/index.php?page=egll_runways - with the other 27 runway in use for departures.

[Martin Loxbo]

Hi Opher,

For all my flights in Europe SIDs and STARs are pre-filed in my flightplans and I guess this is valid for all other operators.

 

In several countries (such as Sweden and Denmark), SID and STAR shall not be inserted into the ATS flight plan, according to the AIP. I suppose the reasoning is that these procedures are always runway specific, and will always be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned by ATC.

 

As to your prefiled flight plans (RPL I suppose?), it seems odd to me to include a runway specific SID or STAR. I'm not a flight plan expert though, so maybe that's how it's done... I believe CFMU will correct this anyway (i.e. if you've filed a SID where this should not normally be done, CFMU will remove the SID from the flight plan and it will never reach ATC).

 

Martin

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

Large aircraft can land with higher tailwinds or crosswinds, and at many airports winds are predominantly in one direction, or are often light, or there may be a lot of zero wind days, or some combination of these. This makes it possible to have a fairly standard allocation of runways for take-off and landing, and so pilots can anticipate using a particular runway with a high probability of being [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned that runway for their landings. If they are indeed given that runway, it's that much less work in the cockpit on the approach. Also, when winds are light and traffic situations permit, it saves fuel to choose a runway on the basis of its alignment with the flight path rather than go many miles out of the way to land on a different runway.

[Anthony Sheehy 866297]

That's size-ist...

 

The fields I control (and they are not major regionals) cater for all aircraft sizes. It's sheer beliger.. er pride, whatever to expect the ATC to conform it's landing and departing runway based on one particular type of traffic.

 

Unlike the US, UK weather has a habit of being fast changing and unpredictable. Some would call it fun. I would agree that at EGLF, 24 gets more use than 06, but even yesterday, the weather changed so radically within the hour that a runway shift was relevant. You could have planned to come in on 24 if you had left Glasgow the previous hour, but by the time you arrived, you would have had to have changed to 06.

[David Saunders 818672]

when flying into the London TMA we teach to give the arriving aircraft the STAR and the landing runway that they will expect, Flightplans should start with the SID departure minus the actual designator ie, departing EGLL to Dover(DVR) from the 27's could either be 27L DVR4G or 27R DVR5F so when filing the 1st waypoint would be DVR xxx xxx xxx then continuing on with the rest of the route, this is so when receiving a clearance, if the runway changes then DVR still stands but the 4G.5F wont really matter because it was not inserted into the flightplan.

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

Large aircraft can land with higher tailwinds or crosswinds

Not necessarily, let's look at transport category aircraft. Weather is common to all aircraft in an airport, and they all have to operate in this weather to be in business, therefore usually designed according to similar if not identical handling requirements. Boeing sample wind landing limitations:

Type---------Max tailwind (Kt)----------------Max crosswind (Kt)

B777------------10 normal 15 optional

B744------------10 normal 15 optional

B767------------10 normal 15 optional-------------33 demonstrated

B737NG---------10 normal 15 optional-------------36 demonstrated.

[Opher Ben Peretz 882232]

What I believe you said here, I wrote earlier, namely that you start the route with the departure airport transition fix selected by the pilot. So essentially there is no SID within the flight plan fixes. BTW that same DVR departure route could also be filed as DET XXX XXX, IIRC.

 

Flightplans should start with the SID departure minus the actual designator ...

[Vince Horan]

Large aircraft can land with higher tailwinds or crosswinds, and at many airports winds are predominantly in one direction, or are often light, or there may be a lot of zero wind days, or some combination of these. This makes it possible to have a fairly standard allocation of runways for take-off and landing, and so pilots can anticipate using a particular runway with a high probability of being [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned that runway for their landings. If they are indeed given that runway, it's that much less work in the cockpit on the approach. Also, when winds are light and traffic situations permit, it saves fuel to choose a runway on the basis of its alignment with the flight path rather than go many miles out of the way to land on a different runway.

 

Check which forum this is! Where in Europe are the winds that predictable? Even in the Mediterranean where much of the year High Pressure dominates, on shore/off shore affects can mean a change of direction during the day - how do you know which it will be. There are places where the direction is fairly standard, and that may be influenced by available navigation systems (or rather the other way, ILS only installed on one runway direction as its rare to go the other way). Nevertheless, as stated in this thread, SID and STAR is not part of the FP regardless of predicatibility.

 

In terms of runway in use, the place in Europe that facinates me is Amsterdam, where they change the runways in use for arrivals and departures several times a day and isnt necessarily the best direction in relation to the wind.

[David Saunders 818672]

What I believe you said here, I wrote earlier, namely that you start the route with the departure airport transition fix selected by the pilot. So essentially there is no SID within the flight plan fixes. BTW that same DVR departure route could also be filed as DET XXX XXX, IIRC.

 

Flightplans should start with the SID departure minus the actual designator ...

 

 

there is also a DET departure form EGLL as well as the DVR departure, so if they filed DET then they would be given a DET departure and not a DVR departure. and what i was trying to get across more than the designator was the fact taht UK TMA controllers should issue the STAR and landing runway on initial contact