Nothing that new...

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

SIDE NOTE

I remember that VATEUD on this link:

http://www.vateud-td.org/upgrade/MinimumRequirements.asp

requires STU+ to know the difference between altitude and flight level...

...I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume this handbook was written by a STU then

END OF THE SIDE NOTE

 

http://www.vateud-td.org/handbooks/references/abbreviations.asp

 

AGL: Altitude Above Ground Level

If it's above ground level, it's an Height.

Keep it easy... AGL = Above Ground Level

 

LTIMETER SETTING: The [...] setting of 1013 Hector Pascal.

Never heard about Hector Pascal, probably hectoPascal hPa.

 

CAVOK: Ceiling and Visibility OK, visibility is 10km or more, no clouds under 5000Ft no fog or mist, and no precipitation, thunderstorm or drifting snow.

At least here, clouds must be at least 5/8, and below the sector altitude.

 

CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-A: Controlled airspace, generally any airspace between 18000' MSL up to and including FL600 (roughly 60000').

CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-B: Controlled airspace around the busiest airports, usually including several rings with different altitude limits and extended 20 miles from the center.

CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-C: Controlled airspace around moderately busy airports, generally in two rings extended out 10 miles and up to 4000 feet.

CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-D: Controlled airspace around any airport with an active tower, generally extended out 5 miles and up to 2500 feet.

CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-E: Any controlled airspace that does not fall under Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A through D.

sounds like a copy-paste from an american source...

Every country has its own cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ification, and at least ICAO speaks about F and G (even if F is not that much used)

 

CROSSWIND LEG: The part of the traffic pattern when the plane flies at right angles to the landing runway at the takeoff end.

 

DOWNWIND LEG: The part of the landing pattern where the plane flies parallel to the runway (usually to the right of the runway) opposite the direction of landing.

Right? Always heard of Left as standard

 

DH: Decision Height, the altitude on an ILS...

If it's an Height, it's not an altitude.

 

EAT: Expected Approach Time, the time at which an ATC expects an arriving aircraft following a delay, will be able to leave the holding point.

Holding point = initial approach fix ?

 

HEIGHT: Altitude as shown on the Radio Altimeter at Zero Level, also know as QFE

If it's Height it's not an Altitude, and QFE is not an height.

 

MSL: Altitude above Mean Sea Level expressed in feet.

MSL means simply "Mean Sea Level"

AMSL stays for altitue "Above Mean Sea Level"

 

RVSM: Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum. The application of 1000ft vertical separation between flight levels above FL290 between RVSM certified aircraft.

it's not UNL, it ends at FL410.

 

TRANSITION ALTITUDE: The Altitude above Mean Sea Level, used for descending aircraft, where the QNH needs to be set to local Atmospheric Pressure.

used for departing aircraft.

Below this altitude, altimeter must be set to the QNH, and altitudes are used

 

TRANSITION LEVEL: The Altitude above Mean Sea Level, used for aircraft climbing above the Transition Altitude, to Flight Levels, where the QNH needs to be set to Standard Atmospheric Pressure.

Transition LEVEL is a LEVEL, not an Altitude. And if it's a LEVEL, it refers to 1013.25 hPa, not to the Mean Sea Level.

It's used for aircraft DESCENDING.

Above this level, altimeter must be set to 1013.25 hPa, and Flight Levels are used

 

VFR: Visual Flight Rules, the rules that govern flight under visual conditions; also used to indicate that weather conditions are suitable for visual flight.

As far as I know, weather conditions are VMC, not VFR

 

 

 

I may be missing something else... Sorry about that.

[Martin Loxbo]

Hi Luca,

 

It's nice to see that someone spots these errors. What is not so nice is that they are there in the first place...

 

Make sure to give Peter Nielsen a heads-up on this, he is usually helpful and corrects errors when pointed out to him. Try emailing or the VATEUD staff forum.

 

Two comments to your comments :

 

- Regarding the traffic circuit, the wording is correct, although it's maybe not the most clear wording possible. "Right angles" refers to 90° turns, and a left hand traffic circuit is indeed flown to the right of the runway.

 

- The definition of EAT is correct. EAT is issued when an aircraft is holding, and that maybe done at any holding point, not necessarily located at an IAF.

[Martin Georg 811874]

Hello guys,

 

Peter Nielsen is currently on vacation. But I very much hope that I can finish my pending work today, and then I will be able to take care of these corrections (at least I can prepare the modified texts). After the 15th, when Peter will return, we will update the page.

 

Martin, Luca is not longer a VATITA staff member, so he has no access to the VATEUD staff forum. It was OK to post it here, and I´d like to thank him for pointing out these errors.

 

The definition of EAT is correct. EAT is issued when an aircraft is holding, and that maybe done at any holding point, not necessarily located at an IAF.

 

Perhaps the term "holding point" is a little bit misleading, as it may be easly confused with the holding point at the end of the runway. A term like "waypoint for holding" would suit better here ...

[Martin Loxbo]

Martin, Luca is not longer a VATITA staff member, so he has no access to the VATEUD staff forum. It was OK to post it here, and I´d like to thank him for pointing out these errors.

 

Oh, I see.

 

The definition of EAT is correct. EAT is issued when an aircraft is holding, and that maybe done at any holding point, not necessarily located at an IAF.

 

Perhaps the term "holding point" is a little bit misleading, as it may be easly confused with the holding point at the end of the runway. A term like "waypoint for holding" would suit better here ...

 

It may be a bit misleading, yes. That's why "holding point" (on the ground) was replaced by "holding position". But now it's changed back to "holding point" again, I believe in order to reduce the risk of confusing it with the US phraseology "position and hold" (which means "line up and wait").

 

But after all the term "holding point" has two meanings, one on the ground and one in the air. I guess that if you mix up whether you're in the air or on the ground you have bigger problems.

 

We should always avoid making up our own terms like "waypoint for holding". In aviation we have many terms that are clearly defined, and it just serves to cause confusion when other terms are used instead. It's not just holding point/holding position/position and hold; just consider take-off/departure, approved/cleared/vacated, level/altitude/height/elevation, approach/arrival, instruction/clearance. Many of these words mean the same in everyday language, but in aviation we must always use them in their specifically defined meaning or things will go wrong.

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

- Regarding the traffic circuit, the wording is correct, although it's maybe not the most clear wording possible. "Right angles" refers to 90° turns

 

probably it's better to say "square angles" or even better "90° turns to the left"

 

and a left hand traffic circuit is indeed flown to the right of the runway.

 

w-w-w-what ?

if you keep doing left turns, you end to the left of the runway, not to the right...

 

- The definition of EAT is correct. EAT is issued when an aircraft is holding, and that maybe done at any holding point, not necessarily located at an IAF.

 

EAT means Estimated APPROACH Time.

If it's APPROACH, it's because it refers to the time at which the plane will commence the approach procedure.

 

If you speak about an aircraft at the holding point, I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you're talking about a departure, which may have to comply with a CTOT (Calculated Take Off Time)... or generally speaking may have filed a certain ETD (Estimated Time for Departure).

[Martin Georg 811874]

EAT means Estimated APPROACH Time.

If it's APPROACH, it's because it refers to the time at which the plane will commence the approach procedure.

 

To be nit-picky , Jeppesen references EAT as "Expected Approach Time", so Luca essentially is correct.

[Alex Stjepanovic 963114]

Can I just suggest that we give the Eurotest a bit of cleanup as well.

 

Anytime any of my fellow controllers or myself has gone to do a written test, we were failed on at least one or two questions, either cause they were phrased out into something that simply did not look like a question, or we were told later on, that what VATEUD-TD provides, cannot be used as referencing material.

 

It's all a hobby, and most of us here are not professionals, but it'd be nice to have the stuff laid out as it ought to be.

 

If there are language barriers around, I for one am willing to offer a hand and I know a good few other people who'd be willing to do the same.

[Martin Georg 811874]

hello Alex,

 

your vACC chief and your TD chief are able to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] on these suggestions through the "suggestion center" in the administrative part of ET. This is the best place, as Peter and Tom will be able to pick them up directly there.

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

http://www.vateud-td.org/handbooks/manual/3_air_pressure_and_altitude.asp

 

Those 2 QNE definitions are wrong.

QNE is the value read by an altimeter, when on the ground, set to 1013.25 hPa.

You may also say that QNE is the vertical distance between the 1013.25 hPa and the airport elevation.

[Martin Georg 811874]

Correct,

 

to be precise, QNE is not a pressure at all, it´s a value of pressure. There are three known types of pressue: QFE, QFEE and QNH.

 

*addingonemorenotetothe"todo"stackforpeter"

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

to be precise, QNE is not a pressure at all, it´s a value of pressure.

 

As I wrote, QNE is the number of feet between 1013.25 hPa and the QFE of the airport.

 

There are three known types of pressue: QFE, QFEE and QNH.

 

What's QFEE?

Do you mean QFF, the MSL in real atmosphere calculated from the QFE keeping in mind about all those damn temperature errors?

[Martin Georg 811874]

QFEE is when you want to type QFF with uncontrolled fingers

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

bump.

[Martin Loxbo]

Thanks for bumping - I had forgotten about this thread!

 

The ICAO definition of EAT is on page 22 in this docomeent: http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Doc%204444%20-%20Air%20Traffic%20Management/Air%20Traffic%20Management%20-%20Amendment%20no.%204.pdf

 

The term "holding point" continues to confuse... Apparently, when the term "holding position" (on the ground) was replaced by "holding point" (see my post above), the term "holding point" (in the air) was replaced by "holding fix".

 

So the correct definition of EAT should be:

 

"EAT: Expected Approach Time, the time at which an ATC expects an arriving aircraft, following a delay, will be able to leave the holding fix."

 

 

About traffic circuits:

 

w-w-w-what ?

if you keep doing left turns, you end to the left of the runway, not to the right...

 

If it's a left hand circuit, an aircraft on downwind will have the runway on its left side, i.e. the aircraft is to the right of the runway.

[Martin Georg 811874]

Luca Vetturi wrote:

bump.

 

Martin Georg wrote:

After the 15th, when Peter will return, we will update the page.

[Luca Vetturi 874351]

w-w-w-what ?

if you keep doing left turns, you end to the left of the runway, not to the right...

 

If it's a left hand circuit, an aircraft on downwind will have the runway on its left side, i.e. the aircraft is to the right of the runway.

 

pick up a paper sheet, draw in front of you runway 36.

draw a line departing from 36, and continue drawing the traffic pattern, to the left.

Then draw the plane heading south, on downwind.

 

Are you still sure the plane is to the right of the runway you are using? Your picture says Left.

[Martin Loxbo]

Are you still sure the plane is to the right of the runway you are using? Your picture says Left.

 

It really depends on how you see it!

 

In a left hand traffic circuit, on downwind, looking out the cockpit of the aircraft (if you are facing forward, i.e. in the direction of flight), the runway will be on the left. Thus you are to the right of the runway.

 

So the wording is correct, but once again it might perhaps be confusing to some.

[Ivan Kovacevic 920456]

The "name" of the pattern is determined when you are ON the runway (or overhead) looking into the direction of the takeoff roll. It also determines which side to turn on, and where will the runway be positioned in relation to the aircraft.

 

So, a right hand pattern, means the position of the downwind leg is to the RIGHT of the runway (when sitting on the runway, facing in the direction of the takeoff roll), the turns will be made in 90* to the Right, and on ALL legs (apart from upwind and final, of course) the runway will be on your right side, either somewhere forward right, at your 3 O' clock, or somewhere rear-right.

 

By replacing all the "right" words with "left" in the above line, the left hand pattern is defined.

 

 

Important note: the term "to the left of the runway" is very relative to the viewers position. If standing on the airport, facing in the direction of takeoffs, all planes on downwind flying a right hand pattern, will be on the right side of the airfield. If the spectator is facing NORTH, the position of the airplane depends on the active runway, and can not be determined in this example. If you are sitting in the cockpit, flying on a RIGHT HAND downwind, the arifield is to your right, so in this reference, you can be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed as being LEFT of the field.

 

Now we remember why the position report usually goes "G-DAFY, Baron 58, 18 miles south-west of Shoreham, with 2 people on Board......" and not "To the left of Shoreham"