Matthew Temple 880167 Posted April 9, 2007 at 11:52 AM Posted April 9, 2007 at 11:52 AM Andrew JV and anyone else. You have been given a link and I will make what is in that link clear. it says USE OF THE ATC CHANNEL IS LIMITED TO EXTREME EMERGENCIES ONLY! What does that mean in plain English? It doesn't need to say prohibited, forbidden, or whatever fancy words yall want to use to split hairs and carry on an argument for no good reason. It does not matter one bit what it says before this p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age and we can argue it all the way until the end of time and it is going to get us nowhere. Regarding the new one..... I have it typed and ready to post up. Before I do that however, I am waiting for this silly arguement to stop and for people to quit cherry picking forums in an effort to stir the pot. So really its up to yall. I can wait. I'm off to work for 10 hours or so, let's see what this forum looks like when I get home tonight. Matthew Temple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Christensen 810317 Posted April 9, 2007 at 01:27 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 01:27 PM I don't see how this can successfully work. What if for example VATCAN ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that is Canada... dumb Aussie here) or Mexico or Oceanic etc have a different policy that allows it. All of their ATC chatter (position opening and closing) will still show up if your controllers are in range, and there is nothing that can be done about it. Certain CTR controllers will definately be in range of neighboring sectors. My understanding is that catagorically the VATSIM policy does NOT prohibit its use, but simply says it should not be used for PRIVATE chat. VATUSA policy on the other hand seems to prohibit it. Without wanting to inflame anything too much, this seems like another dumb and useless policy coming out of VATUSA that serves no real purpose in furthering this hobby. Brings back memories of VATUSA clinging to the no voice policy... Sad indeed. As Matt said in an earlier in the thread we in Australia use it for operation purposes. Roland has correctly pointed out in that same thread that we encourage ground to ground comms, but there are certain things that are simply easier over ATC channel: - Broadcast to see if any neighboring controller has a pilot on channel (extremely useful during events) - Opening and closing. I personally find openings more useful, so I can hand off any traffic in their sector I may have had. - Events. Just about anything to do with events really. Who wants to send ten private messages just to announce a change in sequence flow. - I need help... What do I do... etc types of messages. Before I do that however, I am waiting for this silly arguement to stop and for people to quit cherry picking forums in an effort to stir the pot. Sure there has been some pot stiring, but to ignore the many intelligent posts of your members asking for change or consideration of change I would presume shows disrespect. That is my personal opinion, which is obviously in contrast to some, but so be it. Hope you all had a good easter on the other hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Jason Vodnansky 810003 Posted April 9, 2007 at 01:56 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 01:56 PM Andrew JV and anyone else. You have been given a link and I will make what is in that link clear. it says USE OF THE ATC CHANNEL IS LIMITED TO EXTREME EMERGENCIES ONLY! What does that mean in plain English? It doesn't need to say prohibited, forbidden, or whatever fancy words yall want to use to split hairs and carry on an argument for no good reason. It does not matter one bit what it says before this p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age and we can argue it all the way until the end of time and it is going to get us nowhere. Regarding the new one..... I have it typed and ready to post up. Before I do that however, I am waiting for this silly arguement to stop and for people to quit cherry picking forums in an effort to stir the pot. So really its up to yall. I can wait. I'm off to work for 10 hours or so, let's see what this forum looks like when I get home tonight. Wow, nice answer from the new director. Jason Vodnansky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Hensley 950569 Posted April 9, 2007 at 02:04 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 02:04 PM It amazes me that this is still going on. With my limited eyesight I can still look up and see the controller/chat box list and see who has come on and who has left. If I can see it and not worry about it, maybe you all should try it too. Course, the "regulars" who are posting here would not have anything to argue about then. They can't see the trees for the forest anyway, not even with MY gl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ogden 985378 Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:13 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:13 PM Thanks Matt! I look forward to reading our new policy on this tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Pinto 964946 Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:20 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:20 PM Yall complain too much! ________________________________________ Bruno Pinto VATME - OOMM - C3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Waldeck 866831 Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:29 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 03:29 PM Before I do that however, I am waiting for this silly arguement to stop and for people to quit cherry picking forums in an effort to stir the pot. So really its up to yall. I can wait. I'm off to work for 10 hours or so, let's see what this forum looks like when I get home tonight. I'm honestly quite disappointed by this statement Mr. Temple. You have been selected to perform a job, regardless of the silliness occurring here. So, why does it matter what the forum looks like when you get home? Just do the job you were selected to do. Alan, it’s still an issue as VATUSA has not defined to this day what an “extreme emergency†Lee Waldeck XXX CTR: Are you equipped for the XXXX arrival? NWA DC9: Negative, we are equipped for radar vectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ogden 985378 Posted April 9, 2007 at 04:46 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 04:46 PM Perhaps his point was that if we act like whiny children, the he will treat us that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strad 827369 Posted April 9, 2007 at 05:02 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 05:02 PM says USE OF THE ATC CHANNEL IS LIMITED TO EXTREME EMERGENCIES ONLY! Matthew, Could you please explain to me what an extreme emergency is? Also could you provide us examples of what an extreme emergency would be that would constitute using the ATC Channel? Thank you! Ryan Ryan Strad ZOA - Senior Controller ATC-CTI Student Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strad 827369 Posted April 9, 2007 at 05:14 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 05:14 PM It doesn't need to say prohibited, forbidden, or whatever fancy words yall want to use to split hairs and carry on an argument for no good reason. It does not matter one bit what it says before this p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age and we can argue it all the way until the end of time and it is going to get us nowhere. Posts on the forum are the only way for us to try to influence VATUSA policy and let VATUSA know what we think about the polices. What do you think happens in the United States Congress? The same thing, arguments! I think arguments on rules are good as long as they stay appropriate and if enough people want a rule to be changed or at least rewritten to be clarified, then it should be done. I also stand by my statement that this should be a VATSIM matter, not VATUSA so it can be a uniform policy. Ryan Strad ZOA - Senior Controller ATC-CTI Student Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Evans Posted April 9, 2007 at 06:45 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 06:45 PM Which is a more efficient use of my time during an event.. Messaging the 10+ towers, 3 Center Sectors, and God knows who else that I *DIRECTLY* deal with as Socal Approach that I'm open (after loggin on, getting a briefing from the person I'm [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming the airspace from, actually getting the targets handed to me, etc, don't [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that just because I sign on, I'm ready to start controlling.) which could take me several minutes. -OR- /Socal Open 124.50 Hrm... Mike Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Oliver 971157 Posted April 9, 2007 at 08:03 PM Author Posted April 9, 2007 at 08:03 PM I also am looking forward to reading the new policy. I anticipate that it will be more clear and appropriate. However, I also would have expected a better answer from our new leader. But...I may have a new outlook pending the release of the new policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Moskovich Posted April 9, 2007 at 08:26 PM Posted April 9, 2007 at 08:26 PM Which is a more efficient use of my time during an event.. Messaging the 10+ towers, 3 Center Sectors, and God knows who else that I *DIRECTLY* deal with as Socal Approach that I'm open (after loggin on, getting a briefing from the person I'm [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming the airspace from, actually getting the targets handed to me, etc, don't [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that just because I sign on, I'm ready to start controlling.) which could take me several minutes. -OR- /Socal Open 124.50 Hrm... I agree. If you are going to "prohibit" the use of the ATC Channel, then at least have the decency to allow it during events where there are more than 3 controllers on including adjacent centers. ZTL ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Temple 880167 Posted April 10, 2007 at 01:33 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 01:33 AM Ok here goes nothing..... First, I'll respond to some posts on this page. Ryan S, "Posts on the forum are the only way for us to try to influence VATUSA policy and let VATUSA know what we think about the polices. What do you think happens in the United States Congress? The same thing, arguments! I think arguments on rules are good as long as they stay appropriate and if enough people want a rule to be changed or at least rewritten to be clarified, then it should be done. I also stand by my statement that this should be a VATSIM matter, not VATUSA so it can be a uniform policy." I agree with you 150%. However, some feel that a good way to argue and to get people to listen is by taking cheap shots at them. Do I know the answer to everything? No. Will I consult with members of the Division on most changes that need to be made. Yes, to a point. I'll engage in a professional debate with anybody at any time, but when it gets cheap and childish, I will disengage from any further debate on that issue. I also agree with you 150% that the current policy as written is too restrictive and arcane. However, before I was only in a position to enforce the existing policy, not make a new one. Well, as we can all guess, I am now in that position and the change is happening. I also agree and would like to see the BoG adapt an ATC channel policy that can be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed anywhere on the network that you control. In the meantime, we will work with what I am submitting below and have to make do with what we have. Mr. Oliver and everyone else, here is the new policy, I will send it out to the ATMs tonight or tomorrow (depending on when my baby goes to sleep) and get it posted up on the VATUSA website. At that point, it will be offical. I'm sure your ATMs will let you know as soon as they have it. ******************************************************************************************************************************* Use of the Guard Channel (121.5) The use of the Guard Frequency is prohibited at all times within VATUSA. Use of the ATC (/) Channel Use of the ATC Channel is authorized within VATUSA under the following situations: Opening a position [Position] is open [Frequency] Closing a position [Position] closing at XXXXZ [Position] is closed Or an extreme emergency where a private message may not get to the recipient fast enough such as during large events or trouble with inter-ARTCC corrdination. ********************************************************************************************************************************** Ok, back to Ryan.... What do I define as an emergency? Basically in reference to the use of the ATC channel, I would consider an emergency something along the lines of maybe I had to go really fast (house on fire, someone is trying to steal your car, etc.), then I would just shoot a quick [Position] Emergency Close. However, during large events an emergency can be more broadly defined and the ATC channel is a great tool. Basically all that I can say for emergency is to use common sense. What will prompt me or the VATUSA staff to stop and have a chat with a controller / ARTCC staff regarding abuse? I've seen messages like "Position has the Aircraft" These messages are very sproadic and not a cause for alarm, and I nor my staff will bother with them. However, too many messages depending on the circomestances (non event or really light traffic), may get a message asking the people involved to take it to PM. I don't want to see this either... [Position] closing in 10 [Position] closing in 5 [Position] closing in 2 A simple [Position] of at XXXXZ will suffice followed up with a final closed message. Now, let's say you are trying to handoff an a/c to a neighboring center and he is not accepting nor responding to PM's. Might be a good time to shoot something over the ATC to try to wake him up. An "Alan, quit drooling on the scope" actually I mean, XXX_CTR, check COA123 over X VOR inbound. Ryan, sorry if I cannot be any more clear on the answer. Hopefully by telling you what I would look for would help better determine what you might take as your "boundaries". If at any time you have any questions regarding this or any other policy, email me and I'll give you the best information that I have. My advice if you witness another controller outside your ARTCC abusing the ATC Channel Tool. If someone is using the channel that you feel is out of bounds, please get all the docomeentation that you can (screenshots are a +) and contact your ATM with the information. Let your ATM decide what move he/she will make next. Usually, it will involve your ATM informing the other ATM of the problem, and the problem eventually goes away as corrective action is taken. Sometimes just jumping in without letting your ARTCC staff work with their neighbors brings about bigger problems then just someone overusing the ATC channel. Matthew Temple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Moskovich Posted April 10, 2007 at 01:52 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 01:52 AM Thank you! ZTL ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Oliver 971157 Posted April 10, 2007 at 02:03 AM Author Posted April 10, 2007 at 02:03 AM Thank you sir for a wonderfully clear and concise policy reguarding the usage of the ATC channel. This was my goal for the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Hensley 950569 Posted April 10, 2007 at 02:18 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 02:18 AM I NEVER drool, I may slobber once in a great while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ogden 985378 Posted April 10, 2007 at 03:22 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 03:22 AM so... MEM_E_CTR: Closing at 2145z is acceptable...but... MEM_E_CTR: Closing in 5 is not. I like it. Good work, sir! (though I'm sure we'll still continue fighting about it for like 6 pages...but what else are we gonna spend our time doing? fight about VATNA policy? pfft...that was so last week) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Temple 880167 Posted April 10, 2007 at 03:24 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 03:24 AM so... MEM_E_CTR: Closing at 2145z is acceptable...but... MEM_E_CTR: Closing in 5 is not. I like it. Good work, sir! (though I'm sure we'll still continue fighting about it for like 6 pages...but what else are we gonna spend our time doing? fight about VATNA policy? pfft...that was so last week) Thank Roger Curtiss for that one Robert, I cherry picked that off another thread! Matthew Temple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strad 827369 Posted April 10, 2007 at 05:16 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 05:16 AM Thanks for the explanation for us Matt! Ryan Strad ZOA - Senior Controller ATC-CTI Student Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Doubleday Posted April 10, 2007 at 05:35 AM Posted April 10, 2007 at 05:35 AM Thanks! AD Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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