San Francisco Approach?

[Brian Nuss 887798]

Umm...I don't mean to nitpick Gentlemen...

 

But there is no such thing as a "San Francisco Approach".

 

North of San Luis Obispo, it's either Oakland CTR or NORCAL. They had a dubious experiment several years ago with "Sierra Approach" but that too, is history.

 

Tonight, I made my calls on approach to NORCAL and they didn't bat an eyelid at me (which is to say, they didn't think it was out of place ).

But for those of us that fly in this area, it is grating to have to call up some fictitious controlling agency and check in. It is roughly akin to being forced to calling your wife "Martha" when her name is something else (no offense to those of you who have wives with the name of Martha )

 

Is there anything that can be done about this (ahem) oversight?

[Mike Fries]

The controllers shouldn't bat an eyelid because we use Norcal at ZOA. You did the right thing. Controller Info should include something like Norcal Delta sector or Norcal Combined. If someone calls us up as San Francisco Approach the controller will reply with Norcal Approach. Here is our TRACON sectorization plan, So its Norcal just the controllers logon is SFO_APP. Just like how LAX_APP is Socal. Not to say this doesn't cause confusion but there really is no better way to do it at this point in time.

 

http://oakartcc.com/sectors/NCT-W

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

I can say the same thing when I visit down in ZME and control Little Rock. All pilots and I mean all pilots call it Little Rock Tower. Its actually "Adams Tower". Its Adams Clearance, Adams Ground, Adams Tower, and then "Little Rock APP/DEP" The only Little Rock Tower is the Airbase Tower just north of LIT. There are tons of airports like this, but you cant do much about it.

[Brian Nuss 887798]

Thanks Gents,

 

Mike: what made me first start thinking about this was when I pulled up the available frequencies on FSInn>Contyrol Panel>ATC. When a pilot sees an agency listed as "SFO APP", naturally, he's going to call them by that name. Can't the name be changed at whatever location these are stored?

 

Ryan: Airport names are commonly called by their city name even though so many are named (I think mistakenly) after individuals. Anchorage, for instance, is named "Steven's" after a State lawmaker. But in this case, calling it "Anchorage Tower" is not as absurd as "Eskimo Tower", or some other made up name (IMHO).

[Nate Johns]

On a related tangent, this might bring up the argument to find a viable replacement to ServInfo.

 

Seeing as the program no longer is to be updated, it leaves changes a problematic thing to deal with.

 

I take it something like NCT_APP or SCT_APP or PCT_APP or the like don't show up. I know that dashes don't indicate that a position is filled, and it only recognizes _CTR (as opposed to -CTR) for position relief.

 

vRoute.info is an interesting program, but is not (in my humble opinion) nearly as user-friendly as Servinfo. Knowing the program is in its infancy, however, I trust that will improve.

 

I just wish the author of ServInfo would be willing to release the code and allow development or at LEAST implementation of what should be minor changes to the program to update/add/remove facility information as necessary, even as other programs are being developed to display similar information.

 

~Nate

[Craig Moulton]

The biggest problem is that some have come to rely to heavily on "names" of facilities rather than the frequency. With today's pilot clients, you don't even need to have the controller list open, simply tune the radio to the appropriate frequency. Knowing what frequency is active and what is not, then becomes the problem, hence the controller list. You have to "name" yourself something, and in the case of NORCAL or SOCAL, there are so many subsectors, it is just not possible at present to practically "name" yourself realistically.

 

In SOCAL, for example, there are dozens of subsectors controlling a myridad of airports, and they are all called "SOCAL". We had a huge debate long ago in ZLA about this very issue, and because of the way things like ServInfo work, it was decided that we'd use the main airport name for the sector we are covering, but would still use "SOCAL" to identify ourselves. In the real world, they areas of SOCAL have names that other controllers refer to, though pilots probably wouldn't know one for the other.

 

Of course in the real world, sectors don't go "unmanned", and one controller may have the responsibility of several sectors under one or more radio frequency. You wouldn't look around for a facility name in your radio. You'd look at your airport/approach diagram and would dial up the frequency for Ground/Tower/Departure/Center, etc.

 

What I try to do as a pilot is pay particular attention to the frequency I'm given on handoff's, and try to tune out the "facility name" so that when I check the controller list, I look for the frequency.

 

I'm not sure why you had a controller call himself SFO Approach, unless that is just the radio name you saw in text. If he spoke that name, then my guess would be that he was a new controller and didn't understand the concept of NORCAL. In my experience, the controllers of ZOA do a great job, and don't think I've heard them refer to them selves as anything other than NORCAL when going into an airport that underlies this approach facility.

[Brian Nuss 887798]

Well said, Craig.

 

Btw, to my knowledge, the controller never referred to himself as SFO Approach, its just the tag that evidently ServInfo placed there.

 

I was unaware of the software difficulties VATSIM faces with this sort of thing.

[Mike Fries]

Yes it is indeed servinfo that is the problem. I had a talk with the vRoute designer and asked if he could mirror something like NCL_V_APP to show up as KMOD_APP and KSCK_APP but he can only mirror the center positions at this time. Also I was told in the early development stages that if i sent in LAT/LONGs of Norcal it could go in the program. I have a feeling this is a long ways away though so SFO_APP it is.

 

I told some approach controllers that when I work norcal combined I put that link I gave earlier in my controller info. Hopefully some pilots will check it out and understand our airspace better

[Colin Henry 1009221]

i'm a pilot based out of san francisco, and it's all right as far as things go. I just wish that the sfo twer and at least that oakland center were up a little more often so i could fly there without using unicom so much

[Mike Fries]

Let me pose a question to anybody. If you were doing a flight out of Oakland, right across the Bay (10nm) from SFO, and you see SFO_APP in your controller list.Would you?

 

1. Call up SFO_APP for clearance because you know he covers Oakland

2. Take off on unicom because you're not flying out of SFO

3. Check the SFO_APP controller info (atis) to see if there is any mention to what airports are served or a link to an airspace map

4. Call up SFO_APP on freq and ask if they are serving OAK

5. Private message SFO_APP and ask if they are serving OAK

 

 

Now let me ask this question if you are at KSMF (also covered by SFO_APP) but 80 miles away

[Mike Phyrio 988306]

Let me pose a question to anybody. If you were doing a flight out of Oakland, right across the Bay (10nm) from SFO, and you see SFO_APP in your controller list.Would you?

 

1. Call up SFO_APP for clearance because you know he covers Oakland

2. Take off on unicom because you're not flying out of SFO

3. Check the SFO_APP controller info (atis) to see if there is any mention to what airports are served or a link to an airspace map

4. Call up SFO_APP on freq and ask if they are serving OAK

5. Private message SFO_APP and ask if they are serving OAK

 

 

Now let me ask this question if you are at KSMF (also covered by SFO_APP) but 80 miles away

#1 of course. But I fly outta Oakland alla time so I know that. I don't fly out of KSMF so I have no idea what I'd do under those circomestances. I betcha that if I were to fly out of there and not contact anybody and was seen, if I should have contacted Norcal App, I'd hear about it real soon. LOL!

[Brett Susnitzky 920596]

1. Call up SFO_APP for clearance because you know he covers Oakland Yes

2. Take off on unicom because you're not flying out of SFO Earlier, very likely

3. Check the SFO_APP controller info (atis) to see if there is any mention to what airports are served or a link to an airspace map yes

4. Call up SFO_APP on freq and ask if they are serving OAK yes

5. Private message SFO_APP and ask if they are serving OAK no

 

SMF is a bit of a ways away to expect somebody to call SFO_APP to contact without any question.

[Brad Littlejohn]

1. Call up SFO_APP for clearance because you know he covers Oakland Yes

2. Take off on unicom because you're not flying out of SFO Earlier, very likely

3. Check the SFO_APP controller info (atis) to see if there is any mention to what airports are served or a link to an airspace map yes

4. Call up SFO_APP on freq and ask if they are serving OAK yes

5. Private message SFO_APP and ask if they are serving OAK no

 

SMF is a bit of a ways away to expect somebody to call SFO_APP to contact without any question.

 

This all depends on what the standard operations are for the TRACON there.

 

IIRC, NORCAL is set up just about the same way as SOCAL is here at ZLA. SFO_APP may be running the combined sector, but you can't be sure. That should be mentioned in the controller's info. If they are running combined, SMF will be included in their airspace, so you would also call them for arrivals/departures out of there. They go down as far south as SCK and as far north as MYV and BAB, if not further north.

 

For the most, SFO_APP = Norcal Combined, like LAX_APP = Socal Combined.

 

BL.