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NEW FNO


Kevin Noe 895858
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This looks like a huge mistake. i have been on here since 2004. I have seen the ups and downs of the Friday night events but this new format looks awful. I cant see how this is a good replacement for what we had. There are only select events i can see being some what of a hit like ZAB ZLA ZOA or ZBW ZNY ZDC. But ZHU ZFW ZAU ?? are you joking? Its a 2 hour flight from DFW or 2 1/2 hours from IAH/HOU to ORD/MDW or the other way around. Maybe next time you pick spots you should pick 3 ARTCC's that are next to each other. Wait you already did that for some people. For those ARTCC that are out from the others we are going to see far less traffic its not even worth staffing full. There isn't enough traffic on Friday nights for this event to work with that much of a span. Cant wait for another airline to start a real FNO again!

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This looks like a huge mistake. i have been on here since 2004. I have seen the ups and downs of the Friday night events but this new format looks awful. I cant see how this is a good replacement for what we had. There are only select events i can see being some what of a hit like ZAB ZLA ZOA or ZBW ZNY ZDC. But ZHU ZFW ZAU ?? are you joking? Its a 2 hour flight from DFW or 2 1/2 hours from IAH/HOU to ORD/MDW or the other way around. Maybe next time you pick spots you should pick 3 ARTCC's that are next to each other. Wait you already did that for some people. For those ARTCC that are out from the others we are going to see far less traffic its not even worth staffing full. There isn't enough traffic on Friday nights for this event to work with that much of a span. Cant wait for another airline to start a real FNO again!

 

On top of Ryan's reply, VAs never started FNO; VATUSA did.

 

Here since 2001 and pre-VATSIM (not as if that matters),

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

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On top of Ryan's reply, VAs never started FNO; VATUSA did.

 

I don't believe that this is true in any more than the strictest sense.

 

If memory serves me correctly, the USA Friday night event originated as the TGIF event that VCAir put on, and eventually grew to include multiple virtual airlines. I believe at some point the VATUSA Events staff and the TGIF organizers shared some individuals, and it morphed into a VATUSA event as FNO, but it's really TGIF under just another name.

 

Apologies in advance if I've misstated history; hopefully Craig Moulton or others can chime in.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts.

... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority.

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This looks like a huge mistake. i have been on here since 2004. I have seen the ups and downs of the Friday night events but this new format looks awful. I cant see how this is a good replacement for what we had. There are only select events i can see being some what of a hit like ZAB ZLA ZOA or ZBW ZNY ZDC. But ZHU ZFW ZAU ?? are you joking? Its a 2 hour flight from DFW or 2 1/2 hours from IAH/HOU to ORD/MDW or the other way around. Maybe next time you pick spots you should pick 3 ARTCC's that are next to each other. Wait you already did that for some people. For those ARTCC that are out from the others we are going to see far less traffic its not even worth staffing full. There isn't enough traffic on Friday nights for this event to work with that much of a span. Cant wait for another airline to start a real FNO again!

 

 

I don't see any validity in telling us that you have to fly 2.5 hours from ZDV to ZHU. If you can't sit on the computer for that long why wouldn't you fly a shorter route. Such as IAH-DFW or DAL-HOU which is about 45-55 minutes? I think thats why ZFW and ZHU were put next to each other on that list. If your even more short on time, do a intra-ARTCC flight, for example, MKE-MDW or such.

 

Why the complaining anyways, give the first event this Friday a try, I think thats the atmosphere Karen is trying to create! Let us know what you think when you actually try it out...

Max Tribolet

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TGIF was Vcair's event. FNO came in from VATUSA. FNO succeded TGIF and had nothing to do with Vcair or any other VA getting it started.

 

TGIF to FNO is like a store changing ownership, and changing its name but retaining the same building and the same customers.

 

FNO for all intents and purposes was really just TGIF under new management.

 

Regards.

Ernie.

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But saying FNO had nothing to do with TGIF is 100% incorrect...Without TGIF there would "have" been no FNO

 

If folk want to go into hair splitting, to say that without TGIF there would have been no FNO can't be said with certainty either. How (its a rhetoric question so no need to answer!) for example could you possibly know this?

 

From my personal perspective, anything that encourages and/or increases traffic is a good thing.

Norman

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From my personal perspective, anything that encourages and/or increases traffic is a good thing.

 

Yeah... at the cost of some other rather important issues highlighted throughout other parts of this forum (which I'm sure you're aware of by now).

 

This has all just clicked for me (has it clicked for the rest of you yet?). The stance of the BoG is finally made public through this short, but very sweet, sentence!

 

The good ole "Cost Benefit Analysis" can best be used to describe this (Did the light bulb go off yet?), in which one must weigh the total costs against the total benefits of an action in order to chose the most beneficial/profitable option for the long run...

 

In this case - the decision has been made to implement/alter various policy to increase traffic flow... with the costs being a decrease in pilot intelligence and behavior (See Keith Smith's wonderful thread in the pilot forum - "It's not a game...") and altering events - which many people originally liked, such as FNO/TGIF (or whatever you want to consider it) to make it fit with their "game plan".

 

Since this has all just clicked with me... I suppose I, and most others will not need a response from the BoG with regards to any of these matters - chances are we wouldn't have gotten anything solid anyways. I suppose it’s entirely in the membership's (our) hands now to handle the problems caused by the decision to "increase traffic at all costs".

 

Right now we can only hope the ramifications from this decision won’t permanently affect the future of the network for everyone’s sake.

 

Management at its finest…

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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It would seem this is the case since none of our concerns seem to be getting addressed very well.

 

So tell me if my theory is wrong - its certainly better than no answer to any of these concerns - then I'll shut up.

 

 

Best Regards,

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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Based on my observations of who/how many pilots have attended which/how many of the FNO's since I became VATUSA5, and the many emails I have from members, the correct phrasing of Mr. Doubleday's statement would be "In this case - the decision has been made to alter events - which some people originally liked (but few individuals consistently participated in) and many people didn't like - to fit in with their "game plan" to offer a variety of events that serve the needs of a wider cross section of our members".

 

The event structure of FNO hasn't been banned, as some seem to imply. It has shifted to the ARTCCs to plan such events if they wish. ZLA has offered one already, and it was an extraordinarily well-attended event (albeit, with its' own issues about pilot behavior). ZOA has one scheduled for Sept 14th, ZID has one for the 21st, and ZMP is on the calendar for September 28th. Others are in the planning stages.

 

In addition, if you have been reading the "Where Does the Traffic Go" thread, you will notice that there are calls from the membership to increase traffic for the benefit of pilots and controllers.

 

You are welcome to your interpretation, but that does not mean that your perspective reflects that of our entire membership. I can tell you that it does not.

 

If you have specific questions, my emailbox is always open.

Karen Dunbar

Events Director

VATUSA

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I've already stated before I believe the event idea is nobel... I just have my doubts about it - we shall certainly see, however.

 

What Kevin here is stating is that having three facilities that are relatively close to each other is a much better idea than having, for exampe, ZHU, ZFW, and ZAU... it's like, "Wow, where did ZAU come into that mix?"

 

It would be better if the facilities were grouped together - because if you look at the airspace, everyone will be conga-lining it to/from ZAU on the same routing to/from those southern facilities (which is what you are trying to get away from - plus - thats just no fun for us) - and thats if we see much traffic being the "lone facility" of the mix for that week - just doesn't add up in my mind where that mix came from...

 

Again - nobel idea - just not sure where you're comming up with these facility mixes that make little use, if any, of our LOAs, etc...

 

 

Again - Best Regards with my statements,

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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ok, but it wasnt vcair's event is what i was getting at.

 

Lance Williams and I put together the very first TGIF event for VCAIR exclusively. It remained that way for a few months before other VA's joined in on it... TGIF became FNO. There you have it, straight from the source.

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As I read this thread I am struck how this, and other changes on VATSIM (and other places of course), contrast to how Lockheed's Skunk Works built airplanes. My premise is, if the Skunk Works built airplanes the way VATSIM (all of us, Founders, BoG, everybody down to the newest noob on the network) handles changes, they would still be trying to figure out the jet age.

 

But no, they did the impossible in an incredibly short amount of time. How did they do that? They started from a basic plan, and a millwright may see that the way the plans have it laid out may have some issues. So, instead of spending time trying to convince some engineer somewhere he was wrong, the millwright would 'skunk' or go off by himself (or with a small team) and, if he was right and the Plan A didn't work, he had Plan B in his back pocket, problem solved, progress. P-80 fighter jet built in 90 days from concept drawing to flying airplane. U2. SR-71. Remarkable results.

 

You folks are smart people and have lots of good ideas. I know Karen listens to good ideas, even bad ones for a little while. We could sit here for years crafting the perfect fly in solution and never do one and never learn from our experiences. Or we can start with a framework and try to improve on it going forward, after we've given our best shot at making Plan A work. Working against Plan A so you can be the hero is not fair play. So, commited to trying out new ideas with the knowledge that there is a place for input (in this case Karen and the ARTCC events folks) for your ideas on how to make it better. This new gig is a great place to start, so let's start, and learn, and make it better.

 

See you Friday night.

Kyle Ramsey

 

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TGIF became FNO.

 

Really? The way it appeared to me was that TGIF was shut down ("retired" to use the VCAir CEO's word), and FNO was formed by VATUSA to fill the void. Again, that's just the way it appeared to me from reading posts in the VATSIM and VCAir forums. I don't know the specifics.

 

Personally I'd love to see an alliance of VAs create a new event to run on the weeks when FNO isn't.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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TGIF became FNO.

 

Really? The way it appeared to me was that TGIF was shut down ("retired" to use the VCAir CEO's word), and FNO was formed by VATUSA to fill the void. Again, that's just the way it appeared to me from reading posts in the VATSIM and VCAir forums. I don't know the specifics.

 

Personally I'd love to see an alliance of VAs create a new event to run on the weeks when FNO isn't.

 

Thats what I thought.. Well that is the way it was publicized

VATSIM Supervisor

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TGIF became FNO.

 

Really? The way it appeared to me was that TGIF was shut down ("retired" to use the VCAir CEO's word), and FNO was formed by VATUSA to fill the void. Again, that's just the way it appeared to me from reading posts in the VATSIM and VCAir forums. I don't know the specifics.

 

Personally I'd love to see an alliance of VAs create a new event to run on the weeks when FNO isn't.

 

Thats what I thought.. Well that is the way it was publicized

 

As well as created by Craig Moulton when he was Events Director at the time. FNO was the full replacement of the VA-oriented TGIF.

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

27

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