For all controllers who will be controlling the East Coast

[James Hudson 951027]

Hi,

As for the big red link for new pilots, it really isn't that big. In fact, when I look at the home page, I see no less than six different links that look as thought they might allow me to become a pilot, and the quickest to catch the eye is "Let's Go Fly!" which turns out to have nothing to do with becoming a pilot or training.

So, the phrase "New Pilots Start Here" means nothing to you? Seems clear enough to me. All that is required is for a person to properly read the main page, not just quickly glance and try and find the link with the flashing lights and glitter background.

 

By the way, what were the other 4 links that looked as though they might allow you to become a pilot? Just curious to see if there could actually be a chance of misinterpreting something on the site.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

 

I also belive there is a welcome message when you sign up with the link IN THE EMAIL

[Paul Heaney 879309]

I've considered it, but unfortunately time constraints prevent me from contributing much for now.

 

Stop posting here for 1 day, and you should have more than enough time to accomplish those goals.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

I've actually written technical docomeentation, and 1 day of posting does not equate to writing a technical manual. Writing it as a printed book is slow enough; writing it as a Web page is much worse.

 

You are correct that I'm unwilling to sacrifice flying time or posting time for the purpose, as this type of project requires a great deal of time to do correctly. Perhaps the current state of the PRC reflects a lack of time on the part of the people who have contributed to it.

 

The links I see that are confusing on the home page include "Pilots online," "RESOURCES" in the NETWORK box, "NEW PILOTS START HERE" in red (but in small characters), "Pilot training" a bit below that, and "Member Services," "Pilot Resources," "Let's Go Fly!" and "Regulations."

 

Now, one can have pilots who are better informed more quickly by channeling them more efficiently through the site, or one can defend the current page layout with righteous indignation and continue to tolerate pilots who don't have a clue. That's not my decision.

[Levi Duroy 981416]

The page is perfectly fine as is.I'm sure everything needed to know can be found in the PRC.There is no need to change it.The people who authored the PRC have put a great bit of effort(which you,Anthony,have stated you can't)towards it and have done great.I'm not picking sides,but sometimes it better to point people to the PRC,but also help them.If no one says anything about the PRC,this pilot will always ask a question that can easily be found in the PRC.

[Scott Johnston 890281]

Let me put it this way, if you can't figure out how to sign up:

 

A. You can't read. (English anyway)

B. You have absolutely no common sense.

C. You like to find things to nitpick and over complicate so you pretend not to have any common sense.

D. You don't have any patience, and/or you expect everything to be spoon fed to you.

 

Sad but true. If you're fluent in English and you can't figure out how to sign up, chances are you shouldn't be flying on VATSIM.

[Levi Duroy 981416]

Exactly the point.How do we expect these people to use VATSIM if they can't even navigate a webpage.But obviously,if you're posting here,this isn't a problem.So we is the PRC really an issue here.Use it and Love it.It's there for the pilots.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I've actually written technical docomeentation, and 1 day of posting does not equate to writing a technical manual. Writing it as a printed book is slow enough; writing it as a Web page is much worse.

 

Which is why we have a group of volunteers who pitch in and help with it. There's a TON of information that goes into it and still needs to go into it. If you're expecting one or more people to be obliged to fill in this information and serve it to others on a platter, you'll be greatly disappointed.

 

You are correct that I'm unwilling to sacrifice flying time or posting time for the purpose, as this type of project requires a great deal of time to do correctly.

 

Then following this logic, it wouldn't be right for you to complain or criticize it, because, as I mentioned before, you (plural, not a personal attack) have the power to change things and make it better. We all have that power.

 

It's like the right to vote. If you're eligible to, and you don't exercise that right, you can't complain about the results.

 

Perhaps the current state of the PRC reflects a lack of time on the part of the people who have contributed to it.

 

See the above about having the time. Also, we do have lives to live as well. Just because we've contributed information to it doesn't mean we have to dedicate our heart, soul, and 23 hours 45 minutes to putting info in it.

 

The links I see that are confusing on the home page include "Pilots online," "RESOURCES" in the NETWORK box, "NEW PILOTS START HERE" in red (but in small characters), "Pilot training" a bit below that, and "Member Services," "Pilot Resources," "Let's Go Fly!" and "Regulations."

 

Now, one can have pilots who are better informed more quickly by channeling them more efficiently through the site, or one can defend the current page layout with righteous indignation and continue to tolerate pilots who don't have a clue. That's not my decision.

 

Basically, you're looking for all the information for a well-educated pilot to use to come on here, while shunning ease of accessibility for those you need that presented to them. You really can't have both ways.

 

But then again, you do have the power to contribute to it, so it truly is your decision; especially if you exercise that right. Until then, you really can't complain..

 

BL.

[Rey Lopez 883899]

I've actually written technical docomeentation, and 1 day of posting does not equate to writing a technical manual. Writing it as a printed book is slow enough; writing it as a Web page is much worse.

 

Which is why we have a group of volunteers who pitch in and help with it. There's a TON of information that goes into it and still needs to go into it. If you're expecting one or more people to be obliged to fill in this information and serve it to others on a platter, you'll be greatly disappointed.

 

You are correct that I'm unwilling to sacrifice flying time or posting time for the purpose, as this type of project requires a great deal of time to do correctly.

 

Then following this logic, it wouldn't be right for you to complain or criticize it, because, as I mentioned before, you (plural, not a personal attack) have the power to change things and make it better. We all have that power.

 

It's like the right to vote. If you're eligible to, and you don't exercise that right, you can't complain about the results.

 

Perhaps the current state of the PRC reflects a lack of time on the part of the people who have contributed to it.

 

See the above about having the time. Also, we do have lives to live as well. Just because we've contributed information to it doesn't mean we have to dedicate our heart, soul, and 23 hours 45 minutes to putting info in it.

 

The links I see that are confusing on the home page include "Pilots online," "RESOURCES" in the NETWORK box, "NEW PILOTS START HERE" in red (but in small characters), "Pilot training" a bit below that, and "Member Services," "Pilot Resources," "Let's Go Fly!" and "Regulations."

 

Now, one can have pilots who are better informed more quickly by channeling them more efficiently through the site, or one can defend the current page layout with righteous indignation and continue to tolerate pilots who don't have a clue. That's not my decision.

 

Basically, you're looking for all the information for a well-educated pilot to use to come on here, while shunning ease of accessibility for those you need that presented to them. You really can't have both ways.

 

But then again, you do have the power to contribute to it, so it truly is your decision; especially if you exercise that right. Until then, you really can't complain..

 

BL.

 

Leave it alone brad it knows everything just give up its round 2

 

MEANWHILE...this is my new proposed vatsim web design to allow for better viewing WARNING:this is still in BETA STAGE

 

[Paul Byrne]

Rey,

 

You forgot the flashing lights.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I got it!

 

Let's run off and hire Microsoft Clippy! I hear he's looking for a job now!!

 

BL.

[Michael Bonanno 984105]

I got something to say in this whole argument gone completely astray,

 

 

RELAX!!!! We are all here to have fun, to fly/control airplanes, and to share our p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for aviation.

 

I don't see why every little topic or question has to be scrutinized and picked apart till there is nothing left to it! If a pilot asks a question, help him out, then maybe point him to PRC as a backing for that you said and for him to learn more.

 

My two cents,

Michael

[Dan Morera 1009190]

I just want to add a comment regarding the website's main screen. There are a few links that take you to the same place, About 4 take you to the prc, another 3 take you to VATSIM Resources. Comunity/Forum and Comunity/Support take you to tha same place.

 

There are a couple more links like that, maybe, and this is just my opinion, we should have less info on the main page. Keep it simple and make more information available after you go over prc, then software, then how to connect, then the rest of information.

 

These are just some thoughts from a newbie. I consider myself a smart person and let me tell you I had to go back and read a couple of times some things in the prc. With this I only mean that you have to really want to learn and make an effort if you want this to work.

 

Finally, some people take this too serious, this is supposed to be fun and easy, if I want complications I just go to work.

 

Dan

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

The issue of the website navigation is something we are well aware of. Unfortunately the last attempt at designing a new website foundered, and we are currently looking at some new options.

 

To answer an earlier comment - I'd really hope that someone wanting to become a new pilot clicks on "new pilots start here". If they can't even find and follow that link, how are they going to find their way around charts, FMCs, and the like? The point is taken about duplicate links - they need sorting out.

 

I'd be concerned about simplifying the front page too much - it's not just used by potential new members; it's a resource for all members, and I don't want to bury the links to resources in too many menu layers. If anyone wants to see what the full site content is, and my current ideas for navigation, have a look at the PRC Wiki at http://mbev.net/wikka/WebSiteContents and http://mbev.net/wikka/WebSiteNewNavigation. Interestingly, in the several months these have been up on the Wiki for comment, only Mike Bevington has made any comment at all! And sadly, the rest of the Wiki pages for pilots seem to be going the same way.

 

It is very depressing when people claim they don't have time to help with developing resources, but seem to have plenty of time to post long messages about how terrible the resources are. This organisation is dependent on its members; some are putting their all into making it happen for the rest - where are the rest of you?

 

Ruth

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

I got something to say in this whole argument gone completely astray,

 

 

RELAX!!!! We are all here to have fun, to fly/control airplanes, and to share our p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for aviation.

 

I don't see why every little topic or question has to be scrutinized and picked apart till there is nothing left to it! If a pilot asks a question, help him out, then maybe point him to PRC as a backing for that you said and for him to learn more.

 

My two cents,

Michael

 

Exactly my expressions before, VATSIM is for fun in the first place, as I said!!!

 

Is simple; somebody is coming here and is making a reasonable question (at least for him) and faster than lighting people attacks him.

 

There are few people that like to help and are friendly (like Anthony above); however there are many that answer the topic the majority of times very aggressive trying to show they know more than everyone else.

 

The fact is that this forum is to speak freely as long as you don’t be offensive and use cursing language.

 

So as well as those that do not want people to ask questions here because they are answered elsewhere, those that in fact ask questions (that concern them) has the right to make them too.

 

It is up to us to answer the question or forget about to even write here.

 

Cheers

 

Ah.... btw read this topic http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=24089&highlight=

Edited October 16, 2007 at 09:03 PM by Guest

[Dan Morera 1009190]

I'd be concerned about simplifying the front page too much - it's not just used by potential new members; it's a resource for all members, and I don't want to bury the links to resources in too many menu layers.

 

Maybe keeping it simple as a front page, and adding a log in field, that after completed shows the rest of the info? Just a suggestion

[Brad Littlejohn]

Exactly my expressions before, VATSIM is for fun in the first place, as I said!!!

 

Is simple; somebody is coming here and is making a reasonable question (at least for him) and faster than lighting people attacks him.

 

There are few people that like to help and are friendly (like Anthony above); however there are many that answer the topic the majority of times very aggressive trying to show they know more than everyone else.

 

To those that like to draw ashes to the rest of us…. come on attack!!!; I am giving you more reasons to do what you do better. Come on react to my opinion. Say what I am saying is not true; AIM your guns at me.

 

The fact is that this forum is to speak freely as long as you don’t be offensive and use cursing language.

 

So as well as those that do not want people to ask questions here because they are answered elsewhere, those that in fact ask questions (that concern them) has the right to make them too.

 

It is up to us to answer the question or forget about to even write here.

 

Okay, Bait taken, but I wonder if my thoughts are simply falling on deaf ears. Either way, pull up a chair, and read with a cup of tea. This is going to be lengthy.

 

Let's go back in time. Approximately 90 - 110 years. We are at the beginning of the Industrial Age, and just coming out of the Agricultural Age. For a very long time, the fastest method of transportation had been horse. Not too economical for more than one person (because you had to own more than one horse; 1:1 ratio). Then someone invented the carriage and the predecessors to what became the Buggy Whip. In comparison to the Horse, it is an improvement, with being able to have more people travel through the same medium.

 

Then comes Henry Ford, and the Ford Model T. The Horseless Carriage. When that invention comes out, it all but flattened the horse's importance as a main medium for transportation.

 

Fast forward to today. Jet planes, both sub and supersonic, fast cars, the whole lot. With today's technology in this Information Age, why try to reinvent the Buggy Whip, when cars that can go from 0 to 100km/h in 4 seconds are coming out? Why bring out something that has already been made redundant a long time ago?

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Bringing that concept into the VATSIM perspective, we already have a place where are frequently asked questions are answered. That is the PRC. So why re-invent the wheel and answer the questions here, that the PRC already has answers for?

 

Now, don't get me wrong; I am not saying to ignore those questions, although you bring that up yourself, Ariel. To not answer those questions means lack of or very poor support for/by our community. So in a sense, to keep up the reputation that we have, we are 'honour bound' (lack of a better term) to answer those questions.

 

We have mentioned time and time again, that these answers are there. People go to it, find their answers, and they are on their way. Then we have people who come up and criticize the place we have our FAQs answered. As I have mentioned, as well as Ruth, Ross, and others, the PRC is a community driven platform. If you or anyone has any issues about it, by all means, don't just criticize it or deal with the negative, channel that negativity into positivity and make the PRC better so you can't criticize it. Also following that, the PRC should be accurate, so any information posted there should be verifiable and substantiated. Yet, like Ruth mentioned, when that offer is extended, and people claim they don't have the time to help... They certainly have the time to post criticisms about it. That goes back to what I just said; that time wasted on criticizing could have been channeled to making those criticisms go away.

 

So with that in mind, what do you suggest? Do away with the PRC? have the same questions asked and answered here constantly each day? That would be tedious, which no-one here would want to take part in, which would lead to the poor support I mentioned before. Ariel, you're part of the Training HQ. You should know what this means and entails. So I have a simple question.

 

Would you prefer to make something that we have that has a lot of new people's questions answered at BETTER, or re-invent the wheel/Buggy Whip? Or, since this is VATSIM, I should ask: Do we ship it UPS/Fedex/DHL, or ship it Pony Express?

 

BL.

[Levi Duroy 981416]

I got something to say in this whole argument gone completely astray,

 

 

RELAX!!!! We are all here to have fun, to fly/control airplanes, and to share our p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for aviation.

 

I don't see why every little topic or question has to be scrutinized and picked apart till there is nothing left to it! If a pilot asks a question, help him out, then maybe point him to PRC as a backing for that you said and for him to learn more.

 

My two cents,

Michael

 

Exactly my expressions before, VATSIM is for fun in the first place, as I said!!!

 

Is simple; somebody is coming here and is making a reasonable question (at least for him) and faster than lighting people attacks him.

 

There are few people that like to help and are friendly (like Anthony above); however there are many that answer the topic the majority of times very aggressive trying to show they know more than everyone else.

 

The fact is that this forum is to speak freely as long as you don’t be offensive and use cursing language.

 

So as well as those that do not want people to ask questions here because they are answered elsewhere, those that in fact ask questions (that concern them) has the right to make them too.

 

It is up to us to answer the question or forget about to even write here.

 

Cheers

 

Ah.... btw read this topic http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=24089&highlight=

 

Sorry,but something must be said.No one gets snappy until certain people decide to make drama and call it such.His question was answered.But on top of that,a suggestion towards a better source was made.No one is trying to get snappy,but eventually,when accused,the accused accuse back.This is the main reason for VATSIM fights.

 

 

To me,this thread is venturing off topic.We went from a simple question to argueing over something that some criticize,but say they don't have the time to make better.So isn't that the end.All against the way the PRC is don't have time to make it better,so why continue this???I propose to keep the PRC and the webpage as is.

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

I'd be concerned about simplifying the front page too much - it's not just used by potential new members; it's a resource for all members, and I don't want to bury the links to resources in too many menu layers.

 

Maybe keeping it simple as a front page, and adding a log in field, that after completed shows the rest of the info? Just a suggestion

 

Thanks for the suggestion I'd like to keep the whole website accessible to all. We came in for a lot of stick when the PRC required login; I'd prefer all-comers to be able to see it all. However in redesigning the front page, it would make sense to have the links for new/wannabee members in a prominent area of their own.

 

Ruth

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Exactly my expressions before, VATSIM is for fun in the first place, as I said!!!

 

Is simple; somebody is coming here and is making a reasonable question (at least for him) and faster than lighting people attacks him.

 

There are few people that like to help and are friendly (like Anthony above); however there are many that answer the topic the majority of times very aggressive trying to show they know more than everyone else.

 

To those that like to draw ashes to the rest of us…. come on attack!!!; I am giving you more reasons to do what you do better. Come on react to my opinion. Say what I am saying is not true; AIM your guns at me.

 

The fact is that this forum is to speak freely as long as you don’t be offensive and use cursing language.

 

So as well as those that do not want people to ask questions here because they are answered elsewhere, those that in fact ask questions (that concern them) has the right to make them too.

 

It is up to us to answer the question or forget about to even write here.

 

Okay, Bait taken, but I wonder if my thoughts are simply falling on deaf ears. Either way, pull up a chair, and read with a cup of tea. This is going to be lengthy.

 

Let's go back in time. Approximately 90 - 110 years. We are at the beginning of the Industrial Age, and just coming out of the Agricultural Age. For a very long time, the fastest method of transportation had been horse. Not too economical for more than one person (because you had to own more than one horse; 1:1 ratio). Then someone invented the carriage and the predecessors to what became the Buggy Whip. In comparison to the Horse, it is an improvement, with being able to have more people travel through the same medium.

 

Then comes Henry Ford, and the Ford Model T. The Horseless Carriage. When that invention comes out, it all but flattened the horse's importance as a main medium for transportation.

 

Fast forward to today. Jet planes, both sub and supersonic, fast cars, the whole lot. With today's technology in this Information Age, why try to reinvent the Buggy Whip, when cars that can go from 0 to 100km/h in 4 seconds are coming out? Why bring out something that has already been made redundant a long time ago?

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Bringing that concept into the VATSIM perspective, we already have a place where are frequently asked questions are answered. That is the PRC. So why re-invent the wheel and answer the questions here, that the PRC already has answers for?

 

Now, don't get me wrong; I am not saying to ignore those questions, although you bring that up yourself, Ariel. To not answer those questions means lack of or very poor support for/by our community. So in a sense, to keep up the reputation that we have, we are 'honour bound' (lack of a better term) to answer those questions.

 

We have mentioned time and time again, that these answers are there. People go to it, find their answers, and they are on their way. Then we have people who come up and criticize the place we have our FAQs answered. As I have mentioned, as well as Ruth, Ross, and others, the PRC is a community driven platform. If you or anyone has any issues about it, by all means, don't just criticize it or deal with the negative, channel that negativity into positivity and make the PRC better so you can't criticize it. Also following that, the PRC should be accurate, so any information posted there should be verifiable and substantiated. Yet, like Ruth mentioned, when that offer is extended, and people claim they don't have the time to help... They certainly have the time to post criticisms about it. That goes back to what I just said; that time wasted on criticizing could have been channeled to making those criticisms go away.

 

So with that in mind, what do you suggest? Do away with the PRC? have the same questions asked and answered here constantly each day? That would be tedious, which no-one here would want to take part in, which would lead to the poor support I mentioned before. Ariel, you're part of the Training HQ. You should know what this means and entails. So I have a simple question.

 

Would you prefer to make something that we have that has a lot of new people's questions answered at BETTER, or re-invent the wheel/Buggy Whip? Or, since this is VATSIM, I should ask: Do we ship it UPS/Fedex/DHL, or ship it Pony Express?

 

BL.

 

With all due respect, You don't see the meaning of my posting.

 

Is... Just to be friendly, is to let people ask if they want, is to answer if you want or let others to answer.

 

I haven't mentioned the PRC a single time... PRC is fine, but nothing is compare to human interaction.

 

There's a thread that is going on for three years now... everybody together on one mind... that is what my posting is all about.

[David Reimer 913748]

Well, You are on the traning staff, Maybe VATSIM should make a forum for NEW PILOT QUESTIONS and let you and the VATUSA Traning Staff along with the VATSIM Traning Staff answer all the questions....

[Keith Smith]

A "New Pilot Questions" isn't a bad idea (regardless of who answers the questions). It will provide a centralized repository for all new questions. New pilots are more likely to see a question title that already applies to them (we know that search is underused) if they're all clustered together in one forum.

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Well, You are on the traning staff, Maybe VATSIM should make a forum for NEW PILOT QUESTIONS and let you and the VATUSA Traning Staff along with the VATSIM Traning Staff answer all the questions....

 

Is a good idea!

 

Actually they are working on something new, let wait what is coming up.

 

Unfortunately I deal only with docomeentations not with the website; though I wish I could.

[Daniel Doorgakant]

Or how about, simply, a FAQ forum. The PRC links to pilot software help. One of those forums where only mods or so are allowed to post. Simplified Q's and A's

 

Pretty much like the VRC FAQ Forum. http://www.metacraft.com/VRC/forums/viewforum.php?f=6

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

WHy isn't the "Pilot Talk" forum a place for new pilots to ask questions? Oh, it is. I look down the list and there they are. I think we have this already.

[Keith Smith]

Kyle, Pilot Talk is a place for new pilots to ask questions, as well as a place for pilots to talk in general. My point was that if there was a dedicated forum for new pilot questions, you'd have a high density of frequently asked questions with a decent signal to noise ratio (*cough* in theory) that would be a haven for new pilots to obtain high value info.