TOO late response from pilots

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Not sure if this happens all over VATUSA, or even the whole VATSIM Network, but I have notice that the responses form pilots flying the simulation takes extremely longer than on real life.

 

On real life we are use to response immediately, I have heard a controller non stopping talking and pilots responding at the same time like if they were only two single persons talking.

 

Here I died sometimes waiting for a pilot confirmation that is so easy as just to say ROGER. Many times I have to ping the guy with a “contact meâ€

[Alex Bailey 969331]

This isn't the real world, but I think we could treat it as a learning experience and maybe mention to the pilot that they should pick up the pace. Maybe they just need some help?

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

There is also an inherent delay in the voice interface of as much as a second in some cases, which can cause people to stop onto each other's communications.

[Alex Stjepanovic 963114]

There is also an inherent delay in the voice interface of as much as a second in some cases, which can cause people to stop onto each other's communications.

 

Hmmm.....Yea those 10 minute delays are the worst!

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

This isn't the real world, but I think we could treat it as a learning experience and maybe mention to the pilot that they should pick up the pace. Maybe they just need some help?

 

Is not the real world, but is a real simulation and that part acted exactly the same as the real world. If a pilot takes longer to answer other might be jeopardize (and that is real because they are real persons flying on their computers for real though is simulated).

 

It happened to me (and I am sure to other controllers as well) that you need to send text to a voice pilot, because another hasn't answer and you know (because you've been talking to the first for awhile) that he will answer any moment, but he takes long and the second one is about to enter the approach phase for example.

 

What I am trying to say is that we should include something about this on the PPR (if not there yet) and insist that pilots should answer promptly, because I imagine this is degrading the great experience of some controllers (it does to me) as well as to other pilots.

Edited October 27, 2007 at 09:16 PM by Guest

[Alex Stjepanovic 963114]

Those points are unbelievably true when it comes to doing oceanic ATC

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

Don't forget that VATSIM pilots will be flying single handed, and don't have a PNF to do the button pushing and the comms for them. As a result there has to be a compromise between 1) communicating first, and maybe then being too slow to make the turn or start the descent or 2) aviating first, resulting in a long gap when replying to the controller.

 

Personally I prefer to give the pilot an early instruction that he can read back before acting on. You can always add "immediately" to the instruction if it really has to be done straightaway.

 

Ruth

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Don't forget that VATSIM pilots will be flying single handed, and don't have a PNF to do the button pushing and the comms for them. As a result there has to be a compromise between 1) communicating first, and maybe then being too slow to make the turn or start the descent or 2) aviating first, resulting in a long gap when replying to the controller.

 

Personally I prefer to give the pilot an early instruction that he can read back before acting on. You can always add "immediately" to the instruction if it really has to be done straightaway.

 

Ruth

 

Yes ... I completely agree with this. However I still insist they take too long to answer. I can say it, because Atlanta receive many real world pilots and these guys answer very fast and dry (as on the real world).

[Luke Kolin]

Yes ... I completely agree with this. However I still insist they take too long to answer. I can say it, because Atlanta receive many real world pilots and these guys answer very fast and dry (as on the real world).

 

Please re-read your statement again. Doesn't it strike you as a little unreasonable to expect from hobbyists who fly maybe once or twice a week the same standards as individuals who do it far more regularly under real-world conditions?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[Benton Wilmes]

Don't forget that VATSIM pilots will be flying single handed, and don't have a PNF to do the button pushing and the comms for them. As a result there has to be a compromise between 1) communicating first, and maybe then being too slow to make the turn or start the descent or 2) aviating first, resulting in a long gap when replying to the controller.

 

Personally I prefer to give the pilot an early instruction that he can read back before acting on. You can always add "immediately" to the instruction if it really has to be done straightaway.

 

Ruth

 

With all due respect, Private pilots in the real world have to cope with doing a ton of things at once all by themselves. For instance, during climb out, they are concentrating on maintaining an airspeed during the climb (Vy or some other speed), turning to a heading or maintaining a heading ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned by ATC), performing the checklists, tuning in new frequencies, contacting departure, and at the same time looking outside checking for traffic. If a private pilot can do all that in the real world while still finding time to hit his PTT to talk to ATC, why can't guys on VATSIM? (Especially since who knows how many just use autopilot the entire time) Is it just because people know in real world the consequences are more severe than they are on VATSIM? I'm guessing so.

[Scott Johnston 890281]

The argument that you can't talk and fly your plane at the same time is BS. There are hundreds of REAL pilots that do it everyday, without incident. Even in a huge airliner, you can't possibly be too busy to read back an instruction. I think that usually pilots on here take so long because they don't understand the instruction, and take forever to think about it rather than ask about it.

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Yes ... I completely agree with this. However I still insist they take too long to answer. I can say it, because Atlanta receive many real world pilots and these guys answer very fast and dry (as on the real world).

 

Please re-read your statement again. Doesn't it strike you as a little unreasonable to expect from hobbyists who fly maybe once or twice a week the same standards as individuals who do it far more regularly under real-world conditions?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

 

NOPE!

 

If they come to our simulation they should work as if they were on the real world. VATSIM is NOT a GAME, is a simulation and we are striving for "As real as it gets".

 

In my personal opinion (and I respect others opinions too) If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

Edited October 27, 2007 at 09:09 PM by Guest

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

The argument that you can't talk and fly your plane at the same time is BS. There are hundreds of REAL pilots that do it everyday, without incident. Even in a huge airliner, you can't possibly be too busy to read back an instruction. I think that usually pilots on here take so long because they don't understand the instruction, and take forever to think about it rather than ask about it.

 

Yes I think that too! OR they heard, but are playing with their kids (not that playing with your kids is a bad thing to do); and they don’t pay too much attention to the simulation.

Edited October 27, 2007 at 09:10 PM by Guest

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Don't forget that VATSIM pilots will be flying single handed, and don't have a PNF to do the button pushing and the comms for them. As a result there has to be a compromise between 1) communicating first, and maybe then being too slow to make the turn or start the descent or 2) aviating first, resulting in a long gap when replying to the controller.

 

Personally I prefer to give the pilot an early instruction that he can read back before acting on. You can always add "immediately" to the instruction if it really has to be done straightaway.

 

Ruth

 

Yes ... I completely agree with this. However I still insist they take too long to answer. I can say it, because Atlanta receive many real world pilots and these guys answer very fast and dry (as on the real world).

 

 

Now that Benton mentioned that…. I have re-thinking my posting. Still agree with Ruth, but I have to add that on real world there are many “a single-pilot-flightâ€

[Alex Bailey 969331]

We can strive for and encourage realism, but still have a learning environment. Rather than ranting about the abilities of the pilots on the network, lets promote positive behavior and help them out as much as we can. Right?

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

We can strive for and encourage realism, but still have a learning environment. Rather than ranting about the abilities of the pilots on the network, lets promote positive behavior and help them out as much as we can. Right?

 

Exactly and this is one way of doing it.

 

To encourage pilots to do it better is to help them to be betters and we’d have a better simulation.

 

I hope that all virtual pilots read this thread. I am sure they can do better. Maybe they aren’t aware of this. If we tell them, I am sure they will react positively.

[Michael Lowing 859137]

To encourage pilots to do it better is to help them to be betters and we’d have a better simulation.

 

I hope that all virtual pilots read this thread. I am sure they can do better. Maybe they aren’t aware of this. If we tell them, I am sure they will react positively.

Sure a positive thread sounds good.....oh wait, too late for that

If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

Basically if they can't respond quick enough for YOU they should pack it up and head elsewhere right? What are your responsibilities at VATUSA? I don't see you listed on the VATUSA site as a HQ Staff Member, which is indicated by your signature. What is your callsign? Do you speak for VATUSA in any type of official position on this or any other matter? What is a Training Material Coordinator? Is that a Trainer? Is that someone involved in training others? Is that someone who should have patience and work on improving the skills of others rather than telling them to slog off? I've heard plenty of people on both sides of the mic who can't put together a coherent sentence quickly.

[Luke Kolin]

If they come to our simulation they should work as if they were on the real world. VATSIM is NOT a GAME, is a simulation and we are striving for "As real as it gets".

 

Reality is not a single point; it's a continuum with a number of different points on it. What seems to happen is that people tend to look down on anyone who doesn't reach the level that they demand.

 

If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

 

Last time I checked the CoC, it wasn't forbidden to operate an aircraft in a matter that you personally did not consider sufficiently realistic. While I sympathize with what you deal with as a controller, the fact remains that VATSIM is (as others repeatedly point out) a learning environment. There are plenty of pilots who are learning, and who have a lot to learn. There are also plenty of controllers who have a lot to learn, and it's expected that pilots graciously [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist them in their journey of education. We all have a lot to learn - apparently you do as well.

 

VATSIM faces two issues - pilots at the bottom end in terms of skills who are incapable of operating an aircraft (never mind in an ATC environment) and then with controllers at the top end who have forgotten what it is like to learn and encourage and be welcoming. I've seen hundreds of pilots come through DVA's doors who didn't know squat about aviation - completely and utterly helpless, and at the back of their mind they felt rather hopeless. All we've asked is that each flight is better than the last one, and as long as they wanted to learn we never minded the mistakes they made. And the day comes when they no longer recognize their old self and marvel how far they came.

 

Contrast that to your post. There are probably lots of pilots who read this and genuinely don't want to upset you, make you mad or your experience less enjoyable. And the easiest way to do that is simply not to fly online, or in your airspace. Contrary to what people may believe, there are a lot of folks who don't want to do the wrong thing and they read posts like this and are afraid to fly online. I see it every day - experienced VATSIM types discouraging exactly the type of pilots they want to attract. The goofballs won't care about your post (or even read it). The folks who do will stay away.

 

I sympathize with your desire to improve pilot proficiency; this is NOT the way to do it. You're on the training staff at VATUSA; would you propose soliciting pet pilot peeves about ATC as a means of improving the level of ATC service?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[Keith Smith]

Slow readbacks do become an issue as controller workload increases. When this starts becoming an issue, I simply say, "guys, it's getting really busy, I need the readbacks as soon as you can give them, so I can move onto the next aircraft."

 

People get the idea quickly, and while it may intimidate a handful of pilots, most respond positively and have nice, snappy readbacks.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

Network delays can limit the speed of readbacks, too. You're unlikely to get a readback in less than a second or two on a busy network even if the pilot responds instantly. A second is a long time on a busy frequency, and it's well beyond the interval that many people will interpret as "no response," thereby leading to more collisions (which last longer because of the same network delay).

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

To encourage pilots to do it better is to help them to be betters and we’d have a better simulation.

 

I hope that all virtual pilots read this thread. I am sure they can do better. Maybe they aren’t aware of this. If we tell them, I am sure they will react positively.

Sure a positive thread sounds good.....oh wait, too late for that

If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

Basically if they can't respond quick enough for YOU they should pack it up and head elsewhere right? What are your responsibilities at VATUSA? I don't see you listed on the VATUSA site as a HQ Staff Member, which is indicated by your signature. What is your callsign? Do you speak for VATUSA in any type of official position on this or any other matter? What is a Training Material Coordinator? Is that a Trainer? Is that someone involved in training others? Is that someone who should have patience and work on improving the skills of others rather than telling them to slog off? I've heard plenty of people on both sides of the mic who can't put together a coherent sentence quickly.

 

First if you don’t know who am I and what I do inside the HQ Staff then why you addressed me and punished me and point all your cayons against me?

 

We are not attacking anybody here, all over this thread (that I have started); we are talking in general about the general population, not personal.

 

You come to an open discussion and started pointing fingers!!!

 

If you have your opinion and you have the right on this FREE forum to express it; then what?? I don’t have the right too?

 

Is still my opinion that pilot should answer (or read back) faster than what they are doing right now. I don’t mean new pilots, I mean daily pilots and I have stated that this is mostly on busier airports; new pilots usually fly less dense airports.

 

So please let talk in general; express your opinion if you want without pointing fingers and if you want to know exactly what I do inside the HQ, ask VATUSA1.

 

Thanks

Edited October 28, 2007 at 05:00 AM by Guest

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Network delays can limit the speed of readbacks, too. You're unlikely to get a readback in less than a second or two on a busy network even if the pilot responds instantly. A second is a long time on a busy frequency, and it's well beyond the interval that many people will interpret as "no response," thereby leading to more collisions (which last longer because of the same network delay).

 

It's not what I meant. I have several pilots that read back within an acceptable response time; I am talking about others that don't mind to responde.

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

If they come to our simulation they should work as if they were on the real world. VATSIM is NOT a GAME, is a simulation and we are striving for "As real as it gets".

 

Reality is not a single point; it's a continuum with a number of different points on it. What seems to happen is that people tend to look down on anyone who doesn't reach the level that they demand.

 

If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

 

Last time I checked the CoC, it wasn't forbidden to operate an aircraft in a matter that you personally did not consider sufficiently realistic. While I sympathize with what you deal with as a controller, the fact remains that VATSIM is (as others repeatedly point out) a learning environment. There are plenty of pilots who are learning, and who have a lot to learn. There are also plenty of controllers who have a lot to learn, and it's expected that pilots graciously [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist them in their journey of education. We all have a lot to learn - apparently you do as well.

 

VATSIM faces two issues - pilots at the bottom end in terms of skills who are incapable of operating an aircraft (never mind in an ATC environment) and then with controllers at the top end who have forgotten what it is like to learn and encourage and be welcoming. I've seen hundreds of pilots come through DVA's doors who didn't know squat about aviation - completely and utterly helpless, and at the back of their mind they felt rather hopeless. All we've asked is that each flight is better than the last one, and as long as they wanted to learn we never minded the mistakes they made. And the day comes when they no longer recognize their old self and marvel how far they came.

 

Contrast that to your post. There are probably lots of pilots who read this and genuinely don't want to upset you, make you mad or your experience less enjoyable. And the easiest way to do that is simply not to fly online, or in your airspace. Contrary to what people may believe, there are a lot of folks who don't want to do the wrong thing and they read posts like this and are afraid to fly online. I see it every day - experienced VATSIM types discouraging exactly the type of pilots they want to attract. The goofballs won't care about your post (or even read it). The folks who do will stay away.

 

I sympathize with your desire to improve pilot proficiency; this is NOT the way to do it. You're on the training staff at VATUSA; would you propose soliciting pet pilot peeves about ATC as a means of improving the level of ATC service?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

 

It’s a matter of opinions, for you and others this might be a learning center, to me this is a simulation that has learning activities as a part of many others activities for example Events, Training, Promotions, etc.

 

I’ve been an instructor for several years now, if you check my record on VATSIM statistic 811274, you will see there more than 1100 hours as instructor and more than 1600 as a senior instructor… both together conform more than 2700 hours INSTRUCTING only--- MEANING??? that I like to teach others.

 

So learning is not what I brought to the table to discuss; I understand that we all learn all days; the only thing that I am saying here is that pilots should answer faster to ATC; that is nothing bad or discouraging, by the contrary we all should support that our pilots became better aviators. If they fly at correct altitudes under NEODD SWEVEN rule, if they know how to depart by using a SID (DP now) and if they know that they should fly below 10k not faster than 250 knots (at least over USA) then why they can’t learn that they should answer faster to ATC? There’s nothing wrong with that IMHO.

[Michael Lowing 859137]

Ariel, I don't need to know you to question you. I am asking what it is you do and are you speaking for VATUSA in a OFFICIAL capacity when you suggest that pilots who do not respond quick enough for YOU sign-off and go elsewhere.

 

We are all entitled to our opinion but when you post yours in this forum and have an indeterminate VATUSA HQ position listed in your signature I can question it and your motives. I attempted to figure out what you did but your duties are not listed(that I could find) so I asked you. I have no intention of asking VATUSA1 what you do. Why don't you tell us?

 

Again I ask, are you speaking from an official capacity as a representative of VATUSA and its policies?

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Ariel, I don't need to know you to question you. I am asking what it is you do and are you speaking for VATUSA in a OFFICIAL capacity when you suggest that pilots who do not respond quick enough for YOU sign-off and go elsewhere.

 

We are all entitled to our opinion but when you post yours in this forum and have an indeterminate VATUSA HQ position listed in your signature I can question it and your motives. I attempted to figure out what you did but your duties are not listed(that I could find) so I asked you. I have no intention of asking VATUSA1 what you do. Why don't you tell us?

 

Again I ask, are you speaking from an official capacity as a representative of VATUSA and its policies?

 

>>>when you suggest that pilots who do not respond quick enough for YOU sign-off and go elsewhere. <<<

 

I live in a free country and I can express myself freely so I'll suggest anything that I think will do good at least for me and other controllers.

 

I am not writing in any official capacity, this thread is not about a policies, violations of rules or the Code or Conduit, and nobody has mentioned that.

 

This thread is not personal, period!

 

This is my last posting on the personal concern. I don't want this thread to be locked because it turns into personal. Thanks!