TOO late response from pilots

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

So much testosterone, and so little substantive discussion.

[Matt Bromback]

So much testosterone, and so little substantive discussion.

 

Agreed!!! This is one of the biggest problems with this network, everyone will fight to their death to what they believe is the right thing/opinion. Instead sometimes we should all take a big breath and remember ONE, this is still a HOBBY, and two just have FUN guys!!

[David Reimer 913748]

If they come to our simulation they should work as if they were on the real world. VATSIM is NOT a GAME, is a simulation and we are striving for "As real as it gets".

 

Reality is not a single point; it's a continuum with a number of different points on it. What seems to happen is that people tend to look down on anyone who doesn't reach the level that they demand.

 

If people can't get into the system and get tide to what we are trying to accomplish here, why waste their precious time flying online? It’s better if they go to GameZone for them as well as for us the controllers.

 

Last time I checked the CoC, it wasn't forbidden to operate an aircraft in a matter that you personally did not consider sufficiently realistic. While I sympathize with what you deal with as a controller, the fact remains that VATSIM is (as others repeatedly point out) a learning environment. There are plenty of pilots who are learning, and who have a lot to learn. There are also plenty of controllers who have a lot to learn, and it's expected that pilots graciously [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist them in their journey of education. We all have a lot to learn - apparently you do as well.

 

VATSIM faces two issues - pilots at the bottom end in terms of skills who are incapable of operating an aircraft (never mind in an ATC environment) and then with controllers at the top end who have forgotten what it is like to learn and encourage and be welcoming. I've seen hundreds of pilots come through DVA's doors who didn't know squat about aviation - completely and utterly helpless, and at the back of their mind they felt rather hopeless. All we've asked is that each flight is better than the last one, and as long as they wanted to learn we never minded the mistakes they made. And the day comes when they no longer recognize their old self and marvel how far they came.

 

Contrast that to your post. There are probably lots of pilots who read this and genuinely don't want to upset you, make you mad or your experience less enjoyable. And the easiest way to do that is simply not to fly online, or in your airspace. Contrary to what people may believe, there are a lot of folks who don't want to do the wrong thing and they read posts like this and are afraid to fly online. I see it every day - experienced VATSIM types discouraging exactly the type of pilots they want to attract. The goofballs won't care about your post (or even read it). The folks who do will stay away.

 

I sympathize with your desire to improve pilot proficiency; this is NOT the way to do it. You're on the training staff at VATUSA; would you propose soliciting pet pilot peeves about ATC as a means of improving the level of ATC service?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

 

It’s a matter of opinions, for you and others this might be a learning center, to me this is a simulation that has learning activities as a part of many others activities for example Events, Training, Promotions, etc.

 

I’ve been an instructor for several years now, if you check my record on VATSIM statistic 811274, you will see there more than 1100 hours as instructor and more than 1600 as a senior instructor… both together conform more than 2700 hours INSTRUCTING only--- MEANING??? that I like to teach others.

 

So learning is not what I brought to the table to discuss; I understand that we all learn all days; the only thing that I am saying here is that pilots should answer faster to ATC; that is nothing bad or discouraging, by the contrary we all should support that our pilots became better aviators. If they fly at correct altitudes under NEODD SWEVEN rule, if they know how to depart by using a SID (DP now) and if they know that they should fly below 10k not faster than 250 knots (at least over USA) then why they can’t learn that they should answer faster to ATC? There’s nothing wrong with that IMHO.

 

Like so many people have said before, Hours do not mean everything

 

Ill check back on this thread later this evening, I have some data I need to analize over TD16. (Tropical Depression 16)

[Scott Johnston 890281]

So much testosterone, and so little substantive discussion.

That's all you ever say, Anthony. I don't see how your post has contributed anything to the discussion.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Come on guys... My philosophy on VATSIM is to treat everything as a learning experience. You gain much more respect from the pilots by helping them out in a respectful manner, rather than pointing out their flaws.

 

Lets not turn EVERY thread in these forums into a fight... Ariel means well, let it go. Anthony means well, also, let it go. Go fly/control and enjoy the hobby

[Scott Johnston 890281]

Anthony means well, also

I find that VERY hard to believe.

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

Enough squabbling, thank you. Keep it on topic or don't post.

 

Ruth

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Come on guys... My philosophy on VATSIM is to treat everything as a learning experience. You gain much more respect from the pilots by helping them out in a respectful manner, rather than pointing out their flaws.

 

Lets not turn EVERY thread in these forums into a fight... Ariel means well, let it go. Anthony means well, also, let it go. Go fly/control and enjoy the hobby

 

Thanks Alex… all my interest on this thread is that we have a better simulation. I am not throwing our pilots to the street; by the contrary I want them to be betters.

 

We have a great amount of pilots that support us the controllers; we need them badly, if there’re no pilots there’re no controllers --however they need to learn as well as we the controllers do.

 

So I don’t see why suggesting that they answer a bit faster instead of holding the answer too long is being disrespectful to them or is pointing their flaws; I’ve not talked about anybody in particular; just in general terms. There’s always room to improve on both sides.

[Richard Walsh]

Well I think everybody should want it to be "As real as it gets". It can't. How many RW pilots have the telephone ring while they are flying? How many RW Pilots have their wives come in the cockpit to ask them questions? How many RW Pilots have their kids come in the cockpit to ask them questions, or crying? These things all happen to a VATSIM pilot as well as other things not listed that a RW pilot would never have to deal with. If you are talking about a pilot that constantly does it and seems either distracted or not caring, then yeah, that is annoying. If your talking about a pilot just getting started , well remember how easy it wasn't when you first started.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

All of those things can happen to RW pilots, especially in a small airplane.

[Brad Littlejohn]

All of those things can happen to RW pilots, especially in a small airplane.

 

But the point is, which does the pilot put as a priority, the conversation with the wife/kids/phone, or the readback to ATC? I can guarantee you that in the real world, it will not be any of the former. If so, there would be a phone number given out and a request to 'please explain' as soon as that pilot gets on the ground.

 

I have to agree with Ariel on this; as a controller, as we've mentioned before, our job is to ensure separation of aircraft. To do that, we have to prioritize our calls to pilots, to keep traffic flowing steadily, ensuring that separation. When pilots are slow to give us their readback of a given all, it holds up other calls that need to be given out as well. this is what tends to get us busy, to where Keith and other controllers (myself included) end up saying that it's busy, and we need readbacks in a timely fashion. There's even been a time when readbacks were slow and it got so busy I told pilots that for their readback respond with their callsign only until further advised. It worked.

 

We're here to help pilots, yes. But pilots are also here to help us. It's that never ending cycle that for one side, can be lopsided.

 

BL.

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

All of those things can happen to RW pilots, especially in a small airplane.

 

But the point is, which does the pilot put as a priority, the conversation with the wife/kids/phone, or the readback to ATC? I can guarantee you that in the real world, it will not be any of the former. If so, there would be a phone number given out and a request to 'please explain' as soon as that pilot gets on the ground.

 

I have to agree with Ariel on this; as a controller, as we've mentioned before, our job is to ensure separation of aircraft. To do that, we have to prioritize our calls to pilots, to keep traffic flowing steadily, ensuring that separation. When pilots are slow to give us their readback of a given all, it holds up other calls that need to be given out as well. this is what tends to get us busy, to where Keith and other controllers (myself included) end up saying that it's busy, and we need readbacks in a timely fashion. There's even been a time when readbacks were slow and it got so busy I told pilots that for their readback respond with their callsign only until further advised. It worked.

 

We're here to help pilots, yes. But pilots are also here to help us. It's that never ending cycle that for one side, can be lopsided.

 

BL.

 

Thanks you Brad... and let me add something to this... [expletive deleted RMcT 824054] -just a single "ROGER" does it!

 

If they are busy on the cockpit and have distrations just saying "ROGER" will move us on. Thank!

[Wayne Conrad 989233]

Roger

[Will Stewart]

~~~~

Edited September 7, 2021 at 07:37 PM by Will Stewart
vatsim's insistence on using real names means my vatsim posts are effectively doxxing me forever.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Priorities:

 

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

 

Usually some pilots can only handle one or two at a time

 

Some can't do any of the three, but a little help goes a long way

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

On text the communication can be long delayed, because it requires typing, and often the pilot must have his hands elsewhere, especially during critical phases of flight.

[Brad Littlejohn]

On text the communication can be long delayed, because it requires typing, and often the pilot must have his hands elsewhere, especially during critical phases of flight.

 

But as controllers, we are aware of which pilots are using text only, or are receive only, and which can both transmit and receive. That isn't the issue. I believe Ariel is addressing those which have the ability to transmit and receive. We can allot for the delay for those that respond via text...

 

Amazingly, we controllers sometimes get faster responses from text pilots than we do from those with voice capability.

 

BL.

[Michael Lowing 859137]

Ariel,

 

After continuing to read this thread I want to offer you my apology. Perhaps I was seeing something in the way your post was written that was not there. I apologize for questioning you so hard. I can only say that I feel bad for new pilots who are struggling and I took your post with that in hand. Again I am sorry and if we see ourselves in the same airspace I hope we can say hello.

 

Regards,

 

Michael Lowing

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Ariel,

 

After continuing to read this thread I want to offer you my apology. Perhaps I was seeing something in the way your post was written that was not there. I apologize for questioning you so hard. I can only say that I feel bad for new pilots who are struggling and I took your post with that in hand. Again I am sorry and if we see ourselves in the same airspace I hope we can say hello.

 

Regards,

 

Michael Lowing

 

Thanks you very much… a real man is the one that offer apologies when he think he did a mistake.

 

We all make mistakes, I make them all days, especially while controlling; a wrong turn instruction; a too fast turn; not answering to the text pilots, because text is hidden very fast (only three lines at Atlanta trust me is very short .) But I learn all days and I started to have patient, I must confess I don’t have that virtue too well developed.

 

I want to take this opportunity to say that my job on the HQ staff is as a training material coordinator for Vatusa3, I am a small pawn on the chain to have training material done. Until now I’ve never talked in an official capacity, what happen is that my signature include all that bs because I use it on the Vatusa Staff Forum and is hard to change it every time I write there and back here.

 

Anyway, thanks again!

Edited October 31, 2007 at 03:38 PM by Guest

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

On text the communication can be long delayed, because it requires typing, and often the pilot must have his hands elsewhere, especially during critical phases of flight.

 

If they can't use voice then they should never get into the network I am just kidding!!!

 

No, but seriously typing a "ROGER" is fine and very short for text pilots and we offered the same service to them as well as to voice pilots.

 

Brad is completly right when he says that some times text pilots answer faster... is amazing!

[Kyle Gibson 937127]

I didn't read all of these threads but here's what I have to say. Pilots will get better over time at this. The first time someone flies on VATSIM they're not going to be very good at communicating. Over time, they will learn what to do and eventually post things like this .

[Samuel Chetty 1002608]

I always respond to ATC promptly on VATSIM, but...

I hope nobody watches my virtual aircraft maneuvering... (P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers: OH NO-WE ARE MAKING A NOSE DIVE)

I am not that bad in case you were wondering.

I am NOT a real world pilot.

[Jason Baker 1028693]

Flying in busy airspace means:

 

CTR's have their hands full...

Pilots can have their hands full (no matter what size aircraft they fly).

It recently took me almost a minute to change the frequency in a new panel I was flying (?)

 

CTR's can learn patience by learning to concentrate like RW Controllers (who sometimes get their read backs a minute after they shouted the clearance out).

 

Pilots can learn to get quicker by writing XPDR, HDG's, Altitudes, Speeds, Intersections, and Clearances in general down in shorthand. Shorthand has to be learned, and fine tuned. This takes time. Pilots should never read back a clearance they have not understood in it's entirety.

 

Try to relax on both sides and life will be good.

Maybe someone can come up with a nice shorthand thread - different things work for different people.

Now I never fly on VATSIM without a piece o paper and a pen, ready to write down what I heard.

It helps clarifying everything, and that stupid thought "Geeez, what altitude did he clear me for" almost never comes up again.

 

And helping each other has never destroyed a community. Titles & ego's are counterproductive to smooth Aviation.

OP's post was justified in my opinion - no need to flame someone for bringing up shortcomings.

 

I did not feel confident when I started flying into busy real world airports - I had a mentor, who was able to relax me, as he taught me that ATC'ers are never Monsters. Everyone who has ever flown a aircraft in real world can attest to how intimidating radio's can get.

 

"AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE" = Pilots Job - there is no set standard as to how comfortable one has to feel

Like in a forum - your ego and opinions are always with you. If one can't switch them off while sharing the sky with others he/ she is "misplaced".

[Zachary Beard]

"AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE" = Pilots Job - there is no set standard as to how comfortable one has to feel

I put that phrase in my ATC box, along with the weather.

[Kyle Gibson 937127]

I always respond to ATC promptly on VATSIM, but...

I hope nobody watches my virtual aircraft maneuvering... (P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers: OH NO-WE ARE MAKING A NOSE DIVE)

I am not that bad in case you were wondering.

I am NOT a real world pilot.

 

That's great. However, by experience as a controller, this is usually not the case; usually it's both. I think that practice makes perfect. However, I suggest people new to VATSIM not to fly major events where it can be stressful for the controller. Of course it will happen, but I think we've (controllers) all gotten the hang of controlling events with a bad pilot once and a while.