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Hi, I hope someone here can answer this...

I have been flying flights into lax on the seavu1, for rwy 25L. The aircraft follows the waypoints ok, (pmdg744) no problem

but the chart says to cross fuelr at or above 7000, which I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you hold at 7000 until capture of the localizaer/ glideslope.

Trouble is, when the loc/gs pops up on the panel, a few miles later, I am well above the gs and have to drop down rather quickly to catch it

(its a cargo plane so no complaints from pax) or do a go around.

Last night after fuelr, I let the aircraft desend to 6000, where I just caught the gs, and other than my tcas going off over an airbus320 doing his own

thing, made an uneventful landing.

Since it appears fuelr is 27 nm from the localizer, and fs doesnt seem to pick it up till 20 nm, is it proper to decend after fueler?

Any info here would be helpful

thanks in advance.

ed

Captain Edward Mosier (1287)

"just an earthbound misfit am I..."

 

www.globecargova.org

Polar and Atlas Freight ops

RFP747-200 & PMDG 747-400

Now with DHL freight division using

Flight-1 ATR, and 727, and LevelD 767

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To add what Alex said, Being cleared for the ILS approach after FUELR does NOT guarantee that you'll be on the glideslope at FUELR. Glideslope intercept actually happens at 3200ft, shortly after HUNDA. As per the plate, after FUELR you descend to cross GAATE at or above 5000, and HUNDA at or above 3500.

 

I can't tell you how many pilots sit at 7k after FUELR and then say "why did you leave us at 7000?"

 

Ok...I can tell you. *whispers* lots of them.

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If you haven't told them otherwise, they have to stay wherever you put them. "Cross FUELR at 7000" means stay there afterwards, too, unless you say otherwise ("Cleared for the ILS xxx approach," "Descend via the xxx arrival," "descend and maintain xxx," or whatever).

 

Sometimes ATC puts you at an altitude and then forgets to do anything to lift the restriction, and you may find yourself overflying the airport instead of landing there. It doesn't happen too often in SoCal, but it has happened to me elsewhere.

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Sometimes ATC puts you at an altitude and then forgets to do anything to lift the restriction, and you may find yourself overflying the airport instead of landing there. It doesn't happen too often in SoCal, but it has happened to me elsewhere.

 

FUELR is a 7000' Cross IAF for that Approach.

Look at the vertical approach profile and find 5000' 3500' and 3200' which is your minimum altitude until p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing FAF.

 

Cleared for the Approach with a descend and maintain /Cross FUELR @ 7000 means that you descent to the cleared altitude cross FUELR and continue following the charted procedure from there on. Your next report to ATC is your obligatory "established ILS 25L" most likely at 3500 or 3200. If the CTR would in fact forget to clear you for the APP at this time, you would remind him 2-5 miles away from FUELR I would in this case ask the CTR if he wanted me to hold at FUELR.

From my understanding the ATC has cleared you for the APP and you follow the charted procedure. Prior ALT restrictions are out.

 

After FUELR ATC does not need to descend you any further, this has been done by clearing you for the Approach. It is the Pilots responsibility to fly the procedure as charted.

 

The aircraft follows the waypoints ok, (pmdg744) no problem

but the chart says to cross fuelr at or above 7000, which I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you hold at 7000 until capture of the localizaer/ glideslope.

Trouble is, when the loc/gs pops up on the panel, a few miles later, I am well above the gs and have to drop down rather quickly to catch it

 

to answer your question please note that you will find FUELR as the final point on your STAR, and as the Initial point on your approach. Localizer intercept will happen well beyond FUELR and much lower.

They say I have ADD. But, they dont understand... Ohh, look!!! A chicken!

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That's just it: sometimes you're put at the crossing altitude, but with no clearance for the approach. If that happens, you have to stay at 7000, or wherever.

 

And I don't believe reporting established is mandatory in the U.S., since ATC will occasionally say "report established" (implying that I don't need to report otherwise). I'm fuzzier on what happens in other countries.

 

In the past I haven't said anything to ATC, but I'm increasingly inclined to ask what's up if I don't get clearances in the expected places.

 

In an airspace I won't name at a recent time that I won't specify, I was kept at 5000 for twenty minutes or so, and was gradually vectored further and further from my filed route. Finally, after being cleared for the approach at my departure airport, I pointed out to ATC that this was the airport I had just left, not the one I was flying to. At first I thought there was just some special reason for keeping me at 5000, burning fuel like there's no tomorrow, but in time it became clear that there was a misunderstanding. When there are controllers signing on and off every thirty seconds, that lends itself to confusion, I suppose.

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That's just it: sometimes you're put at the crossing altitude, but with no clearance for the approach. If that happens, you have to stay at 7000, or wherever.

 

Correct, but in the case of the SEAVU1, pilots are giving the instruction "After FUELR, cleared ILS 25L approach" which puts altitude responsibility on the pilot.

 

In the past I haven't said anything to ATC, but I'm increasingly inclined to ask what's up if I don't get clearances in the expected places.

 

Please do... it even happens in the real world. Sometimes a small reminder is needed.

Jim Johnson

VP - Membership (VATGOV12)

j.johnson(at)vatsim.net

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oh boy.... do I feel foolish now....

There is my problem, not looking at the runway approch chart...

Most other airports I fly to start to vector you around and give you altitudes, so I usually do not look at the runway chart.

Since at fuelr, you are very much lined up for the runway anyways, I just [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed one would capture the gs from there....

ATC was on last night (center only) and was excellent service by the way, and he did clear me for ils25L approch. My mistake...

well you learn something new everyday.

Thanks for the input guys.....see ya in the vskys...

Captain Edward Mosier (1287)

"just an earthbound misfit am I..."

 

www.globecargova.org

Polar and Atlas Freight ops

RFP747-200 & PMDG 747-400

Now with DHL freight division using

Flight-1 ATR, and 727, and LevelD 767

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Keep this situation in mind next time you fly into KIAD from the south. The BARIN (RNAV) and COATT arrivals share the BRV VOR with the ILS 1R. It happens to be the IAF for the ILS to 1R. Its such an EASY EASY EASY approach to fly, IF you pull the approach chart out. It seems that 90% of the time that I clear an aircraft for this particular transition to the approach, they keep right on trucking down the STAR route and end up well east of the final approach course.

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As most of this has already been answered, I'll just leave this as food for thought.

 

Most segmented profiled descents (not all) will drop you off (have their final fix) at the IAF for the instrument approach to a runway at the given field. SEAVU1 is a great example, along with the RIIVR1 and CIVET5, all into LAX. SUNST2, TYSSN1, KEPEC1 are examples at LAS. So, it wouldn't be uncommon at all to hear "after XXXXX, cleared ILS runway YY approach", as already mentioned above. From that it is just a simple transition from one chart to another.

 

Also if you don't hear anything like the above, you might hear a PAC clearance (PTAC without the T), because as the STAR drops you onto the localizer, you may just hear Position, cross XXXX at yyyy, cleared ILS approach, or something similar. Both are valid Approach clearances, so be sure to listen in on what the controller says. While it might not sounds like what you're used to hearing, it is as it is, according to The Bible.

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

27

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