VRC and Teamspeak voice issue

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

It seems that when I have both VRC and Teamspeak running at the same time, I have a problem.

 

For example, if I load up VRC first then Teamspeak, my mic on Teamspeak is muted and can't unmute in the Self section on Teamspeak.

 

However, if I load up Teamspeak first then VRC, then VRC will get an error message that says, "Can't initialize voice engine!".

 

What's the problem for this?

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Make sure the following ports are open on your router:

 

8767 - UDP Teamspeak

3782 - TCP/UDP Air to Ground

3290 - TCP/UDP Ground to Ground

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

Make sure the following ports are open on your router:

 

8767 - UDP Teamspeak

3782 - TCP/UDP Air to Ground

3290 - TCP/UDP Ground to Ground

 

umm, do I access my router from my desktop screen?

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Well, I forgot to ask the million-dollar question: Do you even have a router? If so, then yes, you can access your wireless/wired router by typing its IP address in your browser. If not, then your problem is related to something else, at which time someone else will have to take over this thread .

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

uhh, yes I have a router. How do I access my router from my desktop?

[Paul Byrne]

Hi Kevin,

 

I do believe the best suggestion for you would be not to use Teamspeak when controlling on VATSIM.

 

If you want to find out how to access your router and do port forwarding, I would recommend reading the manual for your router. However, I don't think this is your problem. It sounds like a resource problem with your soundcard. You could try and update the drivers for it. This might help, but it could just be that your soundcard doesn't allow for multiple inputs/outputs.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

[Dylan Kay 974936]

If you've had the problem I've had, try looking at what sound driver you are currently using. If both are on "Wave" for example, you need to change one to another sound driver. Go into VRC, then settings, then Audio devices, and change all of the settings to Direct Sound (this is for me, you may have a different sound drivier). Now this makes Teamspeak use Wave, and VRC Direct Sound. I a problem when first controlinmg, where the sound would come in and out when someone was transmitting to me. I don't know if that's your problem, but it worked for me.

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

If you've had the problem I've had, try looking at what sound driver you are currently using. If both are on "Wave" for example, you need to change one to another sound driver. Go into VRC, then settings, then Audio devices, and change all of the settings to Direct Sound (this is for me, you may have a different sound drivier). Now this makes Teamspeak use Wave, and VRC Direct Sound. I a problem when first controlinmg, where the sound would come in and out when someone was transmitting to me. I don't know if that's your problem, but it worked for me.

 

Well, umm, I think I tried this before and it didn't work, I might try again on this one.

 

Is it true that you need TWO soundcards to run both VRC and Teamspeak at the same time? I only have 1 sound card.

 

Also, if anyone knows, what's the difference between Direct Sound and Wave?

[David Jedrejcic]

Kevin,

 

I had this exact same problem. I believe it was my soundcard that caused the problem, because when I unloaded the soundcard, everything worked fine with my default (onboard) soundcard.

 

You do not need two soundcards, but I do not know the difference between DirectSound and Wave. Both of them work fine for me now with VRC and TS running at the same time. I had an extremely over-the-top professional quality sound card hooked up to my machine which was causing the problem, so I would recommend disabling your sound card if able, and either using a cheap soundcard instead, or perhaps using your onboard soundcard (if you are currently using something different that is).

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

DirectSound is a Windows DirectX based driver that, in small terms, allows programs a different way to access the sound card.

 

This is a sound card issue, has nothing to do with a Router. People used to also experience this problem with AVC and Roger Wilco and Teamspeak depending on what they would try to run together.

Well, umm, I think I tried this before and it didn't work, I might try again on this one.

 

Is it true that you need TWO soundcards to run both VRC and Teamspeak at the same time? I only have 1 sound card.

 

Also, if anyone knows, what's the difference between Direct Sound and Wave?

 

If switching one to DirectSound and one to Wave didn't solve your problem, then yes, you'll need two sound cards. It means that your sound card basically won't support you doing that. If you have a high end or good sound card, you should be able to do that. You don't actually have to get an internal sound card anymore though. I bought the Creative Sound Blaster Live! 24 Bit external that connects through USB for my laptop. It seemed to have a couple kinks to work out at first, but works very well considering I can't use a PCI sound card on a laptop. It's bulky though if you look for travel sensitive stuff.

 

There's an even smaller one that looks like a Wireless-Mouse USB jack that I've seen that's much newer and more space friendly by Turtle Beach. Depending on what you look into, if you do, will set you back 30-50 dollars.

 

If you can't get the DirectSound driver(s) to get TS running, then you're pretty much SOL...you can TRY looking for a new Driver for your sound card....but that's where the problem lies.

 

And don't forget: If you're having no problem HEARING, just TRANSMITTING, make sure you're setting the correct driver for the recording function. Maybe you're forgetting to change both the functions in TS or VRC.

[Paul Byrne]

If switching one to DirectSound and one to Wave didn't solve your problem, then yes, you'll need two sound cards. It means that your sound card basically won't support you doing that

Not quite.

 

I had this problem before. An update of the drivers did it for me. It could be simply a driver resource issue.

 

Kevin, check for updated drivers for your soundcard and install them. It can't hurt to do this anyway and it may solve your problem.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

[Tony Rimovsky 1042972]

Hi Kevin,

 

I do believe the best suggestion for you would be not to use Teamspeak when controlling on VATSIM.

 

 

As a practical matter, i've been doing my Clearance/GND/TWR training with ZID and I can't imagine that without teamspeak. I use left control PTT for VRC and right control PTT for teamspeak. Without some sort of outofband voice, I can't imagine how the training could have been done efficiently.

 

I know training isn't the norm, but unequivocally saying no TS while controlling is probably mising some needs.

 

(obviously TS isn't the only oob voice mechanism. I'm making a statement about the principle, not the technology.)

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Not quite.

 

I had this problem before. An update of the drivers did it for me. It could be simply a driver resource issue.

 

Kevin, check for updated drivers for your soundcard and install them. It can't hurt to do this anyway and it may solve your problem.

 

I did sort of correct myself at the end and said he can TRY looking for a driver update. Chances of finding a new driver depend on his Sound Card and the quality of the company that made it. Correct point though.

As a practical matter, i've been doing my Clearance/GND/TWR training with ZID and I can't imagine that without teamspeak. I use left control PTT for VRC and right control PTT for teamspeak. Without some sort of outofband voice, I can't imagine how the training could have been done efficiently.

 

I know training isn't the norm, but unequivocally saying no TS while controlling is probably mising some needs.

 

VRC and ASRC are quite capable clients. I've heard this argument many times from different people, but VATSIM provides our voice infrastructure. There is no NEED for anything extra. Everything that you think you benefit from TS is actually capable to do with VATSIM.

 

In VRC or ASRC, you can create a Private Voice channel. Any channel on any frequency or whatever that you want. For us, it was usually just the TRACON identifier...we used it for group chats and everything (D21, CLE, ZOB, etc). You can control and listen to both channels. If you are an ATC blessed with separate Headset and Speakers, all you do is pipe one channel through speakers and the other through Headset (I'm [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you do this anyway with TS). When you need to talk to one or the other, you just MUTE or UNMUTE it. The only difference is that you can't have two PTT keys (which could possibly be a function for Ross to add eventually, for even easier functionality).

 

I will say that ASRC would be a little more obnoxious to switch between frequencies...but still it does the same thing (and VRC is a newer client...ASRC is how we always used to do it). Since a lot of people use VRC now, though, it's less of a concern. And the Teacher is supposed to be connected with you while you're training, so the "connectability" issue doesn't matter. (Since VATSIM requires you to be connected to the network to join a voice channel....the teacher should be on an special callsign anyways, not teaching you from offline). An example is: if you are on LAX_TWR, the teacher should be online as LAX_I_TWR or something similar. So then in that case, you can even Override or Intercom your teacher instead of using just a private voice chat if you need to know something quickly...and that is easier for ASRC users to access since it has a .ic or .ov command

 

I'm sorry, but TS is just absolutely unnecessary, and Paul's first statement is absolutely justified. And a growing problem I see is that people are becoming more and more TS obsessed (not dependent, just obsessed). If the feeling that VATSIM voice is too inefficient or inaccessible, then post in the Client forums or request features...because all that really limits us are the Client's features themselves, not the actual voice system.

[Tony Rimovsky 1042972]

I guess i'm off in the trees then.

 

I thought the original argument was that controllers shouldn't be talking to other people while controlling (other than other controllers for hand offs, etc, obviously).

 

However, it seems like you are arguing voice client such as VRC vs teamspeak for voice. Seems like this should be a center convention. You use private chat, other centers use TS. To each his own.

 

There are only two general cases where this should even be an issue:

1. Technical problems like the one that started this thread.

2. Controllers that move and need to learn the new convention.

 

the second one shouldn't be a big deal. It isn't hard to use any of these options. The technical problem could be if it prevents a controller from participating at a center.

[Paul Byrne]

Hi Tony,

 

For inter-controller communications (not training) it is better to use the over-ride and intercomm features of ASRC and VRC. The reason for this is very simple. If you are on teamspeak and your all busy, no one on TS will know when the controller is free to talk. He could be rattling off instructions and won't even hear you on TS. Using over-ride you literally plug into the other controllers channel and can tell when he's free to talk. With intercomm the controller can choose when to talk to you. This is not a big issue during quieter sessions but once it gets busy, these sort of comms are necessary.

 

Note, this is not the same as a private voice channel that can be used for training. These are controller specific commands (.ov/.ic) and are meant and simulated accurately for this exact purpose.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

[Tony Rimovsky 1042972]

ok, i'll talk to my trainers about it. I probably need to work through using the VRC intercom and overrides to better understand.

 

Thanks

/tsr

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

However, it seems like you are arguing voice client such as VRC vs teamspeak for voice. Seems like this should be a center convention. You use private chat, other centers use TS. To each his own.

 

Like Paul said about Inter-Controller communications, knowing how to use the Intercom and Override functions are very important. However yes, you are right, I do see it that way: VRC/ASRC vs Teamspeak for voice. Why? For several reasons:

 

1) This only seems to have come up in the last year, maybe two. Why is Teamspeak all of a sudden this "godsend" that everyone on VATSIM is trying to use. We have used the VATSIM voice infrastructure for years with little problem, accomplishing the same thing. So why, especially when VATSIM finally has integrated voice, are we straying and trying to use yet another third party software.

 

2) Teamspeak is not officially recognized for any use on VATSIM. Inter-controller communications should be executed in the client. There's almost no reason not to.

 

3) The more and more teachers encourage the use of Teamspeak, the less and less students seem to be educated on VRC/ASRC ground-ground communications. I see this as a detrimental effect. If the Teacher uses VATSIM private voice and G-G comms with his student, then the student can learn and be 100% comfortable with how to operate it. Not just G-G here, though, why can't you communicate on a VATSIM private line?

 

It should not be a "center's convention" and I also don't see it as qualifying to be "to each his own." This is very important, and I think all controllers should have their Ground-Ground systems set up properly with the ability to use. The exception is for any controller operating text only. If my neighboring Center student doesn't have his G-G set up and working because he's been taught on TeamSpeak and thinks that all he needs is TS to communicate with fellow controllers....that creates just as much a problem for me as it does for him. Then his Center's TS usage has encroached on me because I can't easily communicate with said controller.

 

And then further, it makes the new students think it's okay to use TS for training and coordination. In my vision, it's not. And Tony, please stress this: *I'm in no way directly attacking or criticizing you in any way.* I'm just speaking generally, about the whole situation. And in fact, you are an example of my whole point .

 

NOW. On the other hand. If you are simply using Teamspeak to chat, with friends, someone not on VATSIM, or just to talk....that's YOUR own business. If you are not doing anything directly related with training or controlling...it doesn't matter what programs (Skype, TS) you use on your computer. But for training and G-G communication, I don't see a reason you can't use the VATSIM software to do what it's meant to.

[Ross Carlson]

Personally I see no reason not to use TS for training. It has its advantages ... you can mute/unmute it with a hotkey, you can control the volume separately (for both input and output) even if you don't have multiple output devices, your transmissions cannot be monitored by another VRC/ASRC user, and you can have a separate PTT. Many of these are important benefits for training. Sure, you can mute/unmute a private channel in VRC, but having to do that many, many times during a training session is a pain. It's much easier to just use a different PTT.

 

Note that separate PTT and separate volume controls is a feature I've had on my wish list for quite a while.

 

I also don't think we should point the finger at TS when a controller is found to be ignorant of the G/G functions in VRC/ASRC, and that controller was trained on TS. That's simply a training issue. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with an ARTCC using TS for training, so long as they still ensure that the controllers know how to use the G/G functions, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming there's an LOA in place with the neighbors that specifies the use of G/G for coordination. Not all ARTCCs/FIRs even use G/G. Some use private messages, some use text overrides, some use TS.

 

All that being said, back when I was an instructor at ZBW, we never used TS ... we just used private text messages to communicate during an on-the-job training session. If the training was in the sweatbox, we'd just use the active voice frequency, since we could pause the sim and chat. These methods worked fine for us, but that doesn't mean that using TS won't be better for some.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

It's not that I have a problem with Teamspeak per se, but it has created a *lot* of bad habits at a *lot* of places. And so I see the solution is to avoid using Teamspeak rather than tolerate it. There are now instructors that have grown up in the past year that have no idea how to use G-G because their ARTCC just never uses it and uses TS for coordination.

 

Sure, that is a training issue...however, if we had never tolerated using TS in the first place, then it would never have been a habit and this semi-standard. And don't get me wrong...if somehow the issue is decided that we might as well just implement or approve Teamspeak in some form or another, I have no problem with that...however, the fact remains it is not a VATSIM supported client. For me and any students I teach, I'm going to use the resources that VATSIM gives us and I will NEVER ask them to go out of their way to download yet another program just so that I can talk to them and toggle my mute button.

 

Let me clarify something else...when I mentioned the on-the-job training, I was just making a suggestion....like Ross pointed out about the text messages, during On the Job training, you don't even always need to do a TON of communicating. Usually during OJT, you can just send some comments and snippets about what to do and not. And then for the heavy communicating, though, there's always the option of connecting to the Sweatbox Server or something like that...and you can do heavy comms on a channel somewhere.

 

Either way, I'm going too far here...LOL, have your discussion back

[Ross Carlson]

the fact remains it is not a VATSIM supported client

 

Nor does it need to be ... that fact doesn't (and shouldn't) prevent anyone from using TS. The reality is that for many, TS is the better tool for the job. If they want to use it, more power to them. If their controllers don't know how to use G/G, that's a totally separate issue that can be solved without restricting the use of TS where it is preferred, such as perhaps for training.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Nor does it need to be ... that fact doesn't (and shouldn't) prevent anyone from using TS. The reality is that for many, TS is the better tool for the job. If they want to use it, more power to them. If their controllers don't know how to use G/G, that's a totally separate issue that can be solved without restricting the use of TS where it is preferred, such as perhaps for training.

 

I'll leave it at that and agree to disagree. This is not like a gun-control type situation, where human lives and reality is intact. This is simply a voice communication software, so it's not life and death. I guess what I'm actually feeling more strongly about is that fact that these other people I've observed see no harm or problem in what they are neglecting as far as training, and have actually told me: "Go download Teamspeak." And so my natural reaction to that was "Axe Teamspeak."

 

Whatever...I overblew this one.

[Thomas Akins 955461]

If you are using Windows 2000 you cannot use TS and VRC at the same time with one sound card. I had this problem forever and installed another sound card just to be able to use both. Eventually I figured out that it was a Windows 2000 problem. I actually split the mic input to both sound cards and it worked fine.

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

If you are using Windows 2000 you cannot use TS and VRC at the same time with one sound card. I had this problem forever and installed another sound card just to be able to use both. Eventually I figured out that it was a Windows 2000 problem. I actually split the mic input to both sound cards and it worked fine.

 

I use Windows 2000 also and I use this soundcard:

 

Creative SB AudioPCI 64V

 

That I believe is the default soundcard that came with the computer.

 

I also wonder how are you going to communicate with another pilot if you are flying in formation and such? Is private chat the only way to talk to someone or you could use TS if you have the proper sound card and such?

[Ross Carlson]

Kevin, you can use private voice channels in the pilot client ... no need for TS. (Though many pilots still use TS for this purpose, for various reasons, some of which are discussed here.)

[Kevin Tsai 1029796]

So, shouldn't we ask all ARTCCs not to use TS and use the private VATSIM voice servers instead for chatting and stuff?