William Bunn 1043911 Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:27 PM Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:27 PM While studying for the S1 exam, I say the following Tower Clearance examples in the Arrival Procedures section: "AAL116, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position" or "AAL116, runway one eight, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position Some controllers I has asked say that "Traffic Holding in Position" means holding at the runway hold short line. Others say it means holding in positin on the runway. Which is correct? William Bunn Delta Virtual CFI ZLC Student Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:28 PM Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:28 PM Holding "in position" definitely means the aircraft is on the runway, in position for takeoff. If the aircraft is at the hold short, it is simply holding short, and usually isn't reported to landing traffic. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Bunn 1043911 Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:33 PM Author Posted March 3, 2008 at 07:33 PM Ross, Thanks for the response. I appreciate your help. William William Bunn Delta Virtual CFI ZLC Student Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted March 3, 2008 at 09:03 PM Posted March 3, 2008 at 09:03 PM Actually, I believe this question is now considered invalid. As of a few months ago, the 7110.65 was updated and it is now incorrect procedure to clear an aircraft to land while traffic is holding in position. You may have an aircraft on final with an aircraft holding in position, however, that aircraft on final cannot have a landing clearance. This is to increase airport safety, while decreasing the risk of runway incursions. "c. Do not issue a clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position, taxiing into position or has been cleared to taxi into position and hold until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. Do not clear an aircraft to TIPH if an aircraft has been cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option or unrestricted low approach on the same runway. PHRASEOLOGY- RUNWAY (number), CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION, or (when only one runway is active): CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION. EXAMPLE- 'American 528, runway two three, continue, traffic holding in position'" (FAA 7110.65 3-9-4). Not that I'm trying to stir the pot...I'm just saying not to give landing clearances with aircraft holding in position. If the test makers want to re-do the test, then that's great, but there's no sense in having a big argument over why they should do so... Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Littlejohn Posted March 3, 2008 at 09:56 PM Posted March 3, 2008 at 09:56 PM That is quite correct, Harold. However, there have been waivers granted to various airports who applied for them, because of 1: Single Runway Operations (read: San Diego), 2: Parallel approaches being in effect for arrivals and departures, and 3: operational procedures require it. So while the .65 is correct and updated, Landing clearance is still being given to aircraft on final while traffic is holding in position. It is those same airports who applied for waivers for lock'n'load (read: TIPH) that use this. BL. Brad Littlejohn ZLA Senior Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Williams 877539 Posted March 4, 2008 at 02:24 AM Posted March 4, 2008 at 02:24 AM Just FYI - I was listening to LAX tower today and I heard numerous, "XXX, traffic is a 737 that will be departing before your arrival, runway 25L, cleared to land." Not trying to say right or wrong - just reporting what I heard 20 times in the space of an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Johnston 890281 Posted March 4, 2008 at 03:27 AM Posted March 4, 2008 at 03:27 AM "Departing prior to your arrival", doesn't necessary mean that there is an airplane in position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stearns Posted March 4, 2008 at 02:36 PM Posted March 4, 2008 at 02:36 PM If you keep reading on in paragraph 3-9-4-c it says: 1. Landing clearance need not be withheld if the safety logic system is operating in full core alert runway configuration. 2. Facilities without the safety logic system and facilities with the safety logic system in limited configuration must withhold landing clearance until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. So, since most large airports have the "safety logic system" mentioned, they can issue landing clearances while aircraft hold in position. ZLA, Facility Engineer, C-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Jordan 919403 Posted March 8, 2008 at 09:09 PM Posted March 8, 2008 at 09:09 PM If you keep reading on in paragraph 3-9-4-c it says: 1. Landing clearance need not be withheld if the safety logic system is operating in full core alert runway configuration. 2. Facilities without the safety logic system and facilities with the safety logic system in limited configuration must withhold landing clearance until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. So, since most large airports have the "safety logic system" mentioned, they can issue landing clearances while aircraft hold in position. Anyone wanna update me what this "safety logic system" is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted March 9, 2008 at 04:29 AM Posted March 9, 2008 at 04:29 AM http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=28125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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