Sunshine & Lollipops

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

You guys are getting off track here,,,again !!!

 

I told my guys in Atlanta, if you want to play the game, you can elect to play it in any fashion you choose. Turn left at the church, go down a block to the store and make a right, or TAXI to RW 26 R via, Mike, Charlie bla bla bla. hold shot RW 26L

 

Your customer may be a real Delta Pilot on minute, and a total noob the second minute. You have to cater to both to satisfy all.

 

BTW, I might dissagree about the simmer / gamer theory. Gamers may care more,,,they pay for the privilige

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

When providing tower service, I have always given detailed taxi instructions, and I'm prepared to provide progressive instructions should the pilot fail to have the APD with them or sim/scenery issues. With that I receive a very positive response from the pilots.

 

Agreed when a CTR is running the entire show (60+ Delta airports) then this cannot be expected as a full-time expectation, however the spirit of most of the dedicated controllers (and pilots) is that we want to "simulate" real world procedures.

 

Simulation or a Game?

 

I've personally been here since 2005 to NOT just "play a game"!

 

Perhaps I see the VATSIM network differently than you Dennis, but at the end of the day, we don't get paid for this, it is strictly a HOBBY (obsession for some) but the idea is to have fun, but in a professional aviation manner.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Agreed !

 

However, and I have always said this, you can't rattle off a lengthy complex taxi clearance to a noob 14 year old. He will never come back. But, you can't not give an exact clerance to some VA, or he will never fly in your airppace again, and then bash your operation in the forums. Thus, making it a game. Not all are professionals, and not all are novice. You have to cater to each and every individual customer.

 

Now, if all of this werel real, (not a game) the 16 year old pilot wouldn't be flying a 747 in and out of KATL. (However it is possible) It doesn't matter as long as the participant's fun is satisfied. Listen to your customers. Play as real as you want, or just have fun at it.

 

It's kind of like singing in the bath tub. You can be a star all you want --- untill you dry off. Trust me, there won't be screaming fans at the door, or large sums of money in your bank account. But you personally might feel satisfied:)

 

Face it, there are a handfull of real controller and pilots on this network. Most don't complain. It's the "wanna be" game players that take up the space and creat the trouble.

 

I tried flying a few weeks ago on the network for some practice for a line check. I picked "the Best" (Or so they claim) It was so far from real it was embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing. But I understand that, and knew what to expect. The poor guy really tried his best. Read the clearance as per SOP. Right up to the point he decended me 3000 ft below the MEA. I didn't write a big long letter bashing the ATM. Besides, it would have been imbar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing for the ARTCC.

 

I knew, and realized it was a game. That is all it will ever be. Its VAT TV. Not Reality, Not Actuality.

 

D

[Ross Carlson]

BTW, I might dissagree about the simmer / gamer theory. Gamers may care more,,,they pay for the privilige

 

Not on VATSIM, they don't.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Ahhh, so, VATSIMers are really called "gamers" Thanks for the clarification Ross.

 

BTW, MSFS can be found in the "Video Games" Section of stores. Not "Simulation" Section:)

 

D

[Ross Carlson]

Ahhh, so, VATSIMers are really called "gamers" Thanks for the clarification Ross.

 

Unfortunately, many of them can, yes.

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

...you can't rattle off a lengthy complex taxi clearance to a noob 14 year old. He will never come back.

 

Not true, working Tower I have all the time in the world to work with the new pilot, explaining what we (ATC) do, and be it text or on the comms, help explain everything from the simple taxi to helping them with their flight plan.

 

I work a single tower, and enjoy every minute of it, especially helping the new pilot become a knowledgeable pilot with some encouragement and learning material!

 

I try to instill confidence with the new pilots (shame on me! as most controllers do), by offering a friendly voice and can explain whats wrong with their flight plan and suggest alternative solutions before their airborne.

 

I cannot offer hard stats, but my personal observation is about 96% of the pilots that were confused, accepted the revised clearance and flew it correctly.

 

AND THAT is what VATSIM is ALL ABOUT (IMHO)!

 

Cheers!

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Gerry, you misread my point. I agreed with you. What I said was, you can't take your ARTCC's mandate to "DO IT RIGHT OR ELSE" mentality. Do as you exactly did. Take the time to explain it to a noob. The problem is, "you" will be ridiculed if you don't read the clearance exactly. Thats why we wanted to take ZAU and turn it into a noob facility. (I'll have to give Craig credit for that one though) I preferred a "West Coast facility"

 

Getting back to the main topic of the thread, The game is taken way too seriously. Here was an exact quote from the FAA, and they were serious about wanting to implimenti it. One clearance to a noob from that writing, and they are gone!

 

However, your writing does prove it as a game. Try teaching a real flight student on a real tower frequency.

 

D

VAT TV Not Actuality, Not Reality

[Dan Everette]

D

VAT TV Not Actuality, Not Reality

 

Ya know.. getting really tired of your failed attempts at backwards humor, stabs at VATUSA, as well as innuendo. Kind of depressing and disrespectful to those that are trying at the ARTCC level to make this organization a better place to be a part of, and LEARN in.

 

Why don't you head over to: http://www.towersimulator.com/ and buy that video game, select ORD, and pretend you're still VATUSA1 who got your way and are playing your little video game of sandbox, which you were trying to make ZAU.

 

Either way, have some respect for those that are still trying to teach the new folks (both pilots and controllers) how to be productive members of this organization, and stop acting like a little kid who had your division.... errrr lollipop taken away from you.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Personal attack..10 points. Time for the "Gary Police" to lock the forum.

 

Can we please try and stay on topic?

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

... Try teaching a real flight student on a real tower frequency.

 

No argument here, as a retired ATP and CFMEII (no RW ATC), I agree that the VATSIM environment doesn't match the real world, anymore than having local controllers sending pilots to UNICOM, but as we grow in ATC strength, we can educate the new pilots, be it a 13 year old fledgling , or a 50 year old veteran.

 

Bottom line, this is not the real thing (agreed), and this is NOT the ZONE! It's my belief that VATSIM focuses on people that want to enjoy a professional aviation experience, and are looking to perhaps make this their career. I think we should expect new pilots starting here to accept this, and plan to learn, and enjoy what VATSIM is all about.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Gee.. and I was trying so very hard to stay out of this and not let the smeghead in me get the best of me, but I can't stands no more. Oh well, in for a sheep...

 

Personal attack..10 points. Time for the "Gary Police" to lock the forum.

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

Ya know.. getting really tired of your failed attempts at backwards humor, stabs at VATUSA, as well as innuendo. Kind of depressing and disrespectful to those that are trying at the ARTCC level to make this organization a better place to be a part of, and LEARN in.

 

Either way, have some respect for those that are still trying to teach the new folks (both pilots and controllers) how to be productive members of this organization, and stop acting like a little kid who had your division.... errrr lollipop taken away from you.

 

Spot on, Dan. It's rather sad and childish to see someone act like this in a place where we are to MOCHa HaGoTDI. It really speaks of their character. As for respect, we all know, it is earned, and not bestowed. And when it is lost, it takes a lot to get it back. The way Dennis is heading, we won't be getting it back. and is losing it from a lot more people by the moment. It's funny that he states that we can't rattle off taxi clearances to the noob 14 year old, yet I've seen and know 14 year old people and younger on this network that possess more comprehension and maturity than the one stating the above statements.

 

I recently listened to a song I hadn't heard in 17 years, Get the Funk Out, by a band called Extreme. It had the following lyrics:

 

You're all invited to the party

You know you didn't have to come

But no rotten apple is going to spoil my fun

 

If you don't like you see here, get the funk out

We won't try to force feed you, get the funk out

 

No-one is forcing you to be here, Dennis. If you don't like what we are doing at VATSIM, either go through the proper channels to affect change as a member (as we all can do), or leave. Like the above, we're all here having fun, but no-one is forcing you to stay here if you don't like. So if you don't like it, you're free to leave. Otherwise, you're trolling, and those that have the authority to take care of that, will, with or without your choice.

 

Can we please try and stay on topic?

 

Okay.

 

As far as taxi instructions are concerned, as we strive for REALISM on this network, despite your punitive efforts to cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ify this as a game, we will give the instructions as best as we can for the position that we are in. If we are in the Local facility, we give the full taxi clearances. If we are higher, technically, we can't see the runways, as the enroute and TRACON/Director facility most of the time isn't located at the given field in question.

 

But on the other hand, like Keith said, if we simulate being the local controller, we give the taxi instructions. Either way, we achieve what we are looking for here: realism, despite your best efforts to state the contrary.

 

BL.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Same here Gerry, but not totally retired. I'm driving some old birds across the water a couple of time a day. Shoot, I never hear a perfect clearance. And "he's out your left windshield" is correct clearance enough for me. Or, "cleared to land" when we're 40 out at 14 is also good enought for me too :):) Matter of fact, due to the recent fuel prices, we've abandoned any conventional approaches. (Unless weather prohibits) The less ground we cover, the better it is. We've never made it through a complete RNAV arrival without a deviation and some good old fashioned controller creativity:)

 

When I want reality, I put the stripes on my shoulders, have a cup of coffee, and read the bid lists. It's okay to pretend your a controller if you wish, I used to do it in Atlanta. It did use to be fun, and we didn't bend any metal by not reading a correct clearance. We taught the noobs and everything was fine. If they wanted to read directly from 7110, then fine. But most kids were thrilled to just be involved with aviation, and not politics.

 

Anyway, I did take Dan up on his offer of Tower Simulator. What a great piece of software! It wasn't extremely overly complicated, no Bureaucracy, no egos, and I didn't have to take a hundred tests to be able to enjoy and play it it. But I never could get ZAU or ZLA to work. :):) ((BTW- I didn't think advertising was leagal on VATSIM))

 

2345, So long, have a gooden !!! Oh sorry, You may now contact the approraite departure controller person on a frequency of 123 point 45 He/She will be more than happy to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist you in your journey.

D

[Joe Caban 844086]

Ya know people always make this whole game versus simulation thing into an issue when it's really simple. Every game I have ever played I played to win. I played and practiced to get better until I got good. That was the fun of it, the challenge to get better and be better. The problem with the people who make this argument is they aren't playing to win. They make VATSIM into their own personal "Im only here because I'm bored" activity. Think about TETRIS, it is a high speed thinking game. You play it for hours because you are always trying to beat your last score. I see VATSIM as the same thing, if your controller ability sucks you work at it to improve it for the sake of getting a higher score. Scoring points to me means pushing tin in volume without separation errors and without violating your airspace. I am tired of seeing the VATUSA controller who can't seperate two aircraft get promoted to INSTRUCTOR because he knows someone.

 

The way ZTL is set up right now, if you want to play to win you will have an easy time getting there. There are no tests and no redtape. But if you don't play the game you will sit the bench cause no one picked you...

 

Dennis, I consider you a friend and I am not one of these anti-Dennis bashers....but you're approach and philosophy ruins the fun for guys like me who play the game like a game. To be honest, the way ZTL was under your philosophy encouraged having a bunch of controllers who can't control worth a damn. Those guys have either improved or left. It's a lot more fun for me and everyone else who's on when we have a good team of controllers who all want to get better. It's definitely a game, and I play to be the best. What's the point of playing if you're just here to go through the motions and not improve. I doubt I'd ever want that kind of loser on my team.

[Joe Caban 844086]

P.S. I do get your point and totally agree with you about the wanna-bes. They do ruin things as well, especially the title chasers and wanna be managers who would ruin every real world business or facility they touch. All the bickering, politics, and egotism ruins the game because the best players don't reap the biggest rewards... Guys like Gary who reward for politics and not performance will always hinder things here. Guys like Dennis who try to over simplify this place will take the challenge out of it which is why every one is here anyway. We need balance. No one plays the "VATSIM GAME" to learn...they do it for the challenge of getting good. Why do you think I say "ATLANTA has five runways, but if it was upto me, I would require that only one runway be in use unless traffic requires additional runways." I say this to keep the controller at a challenged level of game play when it's less busy. Apparently, no when sees my point...

[Paul Biderman]

The concept of VATSIM or any other virtual aviation network is great and can be a lot of fun. It's when egos get in the way of the fun that it gets to be a problem.

 

These new taxi instruction procedures are great and I'll probably use them. The key word there being "probably". When people come in who just want to make VATSIM into a big bureaucracy with miles and miles of red tape and tell me I have to use these instructions word for word out of the 7110.65 and if I don't I'm in trouble is when I start to have a problem with VATSIM.

 

Real world controllers are not NEARLY as "by the book" as some would have you think. If you don't believe me, listen to any live ATC feed from anywhere in the world. They cut corners and "tailor phraselogy" to their own needs every minute of every day. And they have real lives at stake.

 

There is a difference between game & simulation, but if you look at VATSIM objectively, it doesn't fit into either category exclusively. There should be elements of game, and elements of simulation in this hobby. If it ever becomes exclusively simulation (work), VATSIM will be in big trouble.

 

Consider the standard 747 pilot on VATSIM. There are those who just want to have fun and enjoy the "game" aspect of the hobby, so they jump into the default FS9/FSX 747 with no add-ons and just fly. If they do any amount of learning to figure out how to file and fly a proper flight plan, the controllers love them. Then there are the "simulation junkies", who go out and spend $75 for an add-on aircraft and spend hours upon hours learning how to fly it inside and out, and again, the controllers love those guys too.

 

It's the same with controllers. Some guys want to do the minimum amount of study so they can just plug into their favorite tower/approach/center position and sound like they're "real controllers", who couldn't quote one item out of the 7110.65, and pilots love them. Then there are the guys who can quote the 7110.65 in their sleep and could probably get a job with the FAA if they aren't already employed by them, and VATSIM pilots love those guys too.

 

As long as some personalities in VATSIM continue to view this as exclusively a simulation, and as their own personal playgrounds, there will be discussions like this one. If they ever realize that they are here to cater to the gamers, and to the sim addicts, this will be a fun hobby again.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

To play out the game vs sim aspect, I would refer you to a book by James C[Mod - Happy Thoughts], "Finite and Infintie Games"

 

In short, finite games have a beginning and an end, they have winners and they have losers. Football (both kinds), basketball, chess, checkers, all finite games. Nothing wrong with finite games, in fact they are entertainment for the most part.

 

Infinite games have beginnings but do not have an end. They have winners but no losers. If a loser is required, it is a finite game. Marriage is a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic example, but also many businesses that last far longer than their founders. And VATSIM. The underlying principle of Infinite games is there is a tomorrow, so we do nothing today that harms our ability to do it again tomorrow, striving each day to advance the game, even if only a little.

 

Being offended by calling MSFS a game and trying to make that mean something demeaning is just a pure waste of time. The term 'game' has gotten to mean far more than it may seem. I use "Game Theory" in my professional life all the time, and it is dead serious stuff, no fluff there. We also use simulations to demonstrate the principles of "Game Theory" to clients.

 

Also, while Dennis may be stating things in what appears to be a provocative manner based on his recent history, we shall still always remain respectful of all members of VATSIM in this forum, even when we find what they say disagreeable. You are welcome to disagree with him, or anyojne for that matter, but please leave the personal shots out of it. You are all far more intelligent than that and don't really need such base tactics to make your point.

 

Lastly, while this is an interesting debate in this forum, I think ATC'ers need to seek advice from their local division on how this will or won't affect their operations. It is already limited to the USA for now so only hits there. In short, you can debate here all you like but the policy is set at the division level and it is there that decisions will be made and guidance issued.

[Steven Perry]

So, back to my original post...

 

If anyone would like to keep things a little more on the real side, here's the change the FAA is implementing. Take it or leave it... it's not political and the change in the 7110.65 is not up for debate. I just thought I'd share the info that I came across since most folks, including the die hard types, do not follow mundane safety stuff like I do.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

My point was, the "mandatory" word. I just read in the Atlanta Forum that this new FAR was "Mandatory" . Mandatory for reading would have been a better choice of words. But my guess would be that some ARTCC will probably bash one of their participants if they don't quote the phrasology as written.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, real world contrllers have their own way of getting the message across. They even have their own individual accents. They can subliminally calm a tense situation by deviating from the proper phrasology. They simply have a game to try and win by using whatever means necessary.

 

Paul hit the nail on the head. Go listen to an ATC monitoring facility. Or, as me, fly in the real world. Rarely do you hear "correct" phrasology.

 

As for the game theory, call it what you wish. However, there are professional simulators out there for training. And I don't imagine they have Serve Info, VAT Spy, chat messaging, nor forums within. Same with professiona certified flight simulators. No where in the 73's sim was I able to pull up a web page for weather and email my Sister at the same time. I'd kill to have those ameinities in my cockpit. Or lets just say, it would probably cause someone to get killed

 

I did try and go back to Atlanta, but their training and recertification I though was a little over the top. I do understand and respect Joe's direction and enthusiasm. I will be the first to say that re-current training is grand. I am not looking for any hand outs, and could probably ace their requirements, if I wanted to put forth the effor. Joe knows this as he and I were instrumental in putting all of that stuff together at one point. But since this is a game, and membership is what it is all about, it is a shame for someone with my experience me to sit on the sidelines and not be able to provid service to an otherwise unmanned facililty.

 

What you guys don't know is, the above subject is the next path of all of that Global Policy agenda. Wait until that phase kicks in! However, phase one wasn't very sucessful. There is a very limited area a guy can still play the game in. The ARTCCs were very creative in expanding the "4" facility limitation.

 

We all know that pilots follow ATC. No ATC, no traffic. Rarly did I ever receive a complaint of bad service as much as I did no service at all.

 

Come on guys, no ARTCC can provide a fully staffed facility that requires that much sectorazation. Even during events. And the traffic is never realistic. You don't have all of the little putddle jumpers crossing the airspace at various altitudes going form airport to airport. It's always the typical unrealistic "Cong Line" That's not simulation. Let Joe toss you into one of his Tower Trainer sessions. Now that was decent simulation !

 

Most participants will never go into a real ATC or piloting career. Age, agility, cost, or for whatever reason. Leave the real simulation to the professionals. Otherwise, this is just a game, and a pretty good game. Right up until the politics kick in. If you continue to mandate things, and treat it as the real thing, you will continue to see membership diminish. Prople bashing in the forum doesn't help either.

 

So, as long as the unrealistic amenites such as continous radar service, chat messaging, serve info, visibility ranges, teamspeak, and web access exist, what is the point in Mandating FAA procedures? Thus, it is strictly a game. It specifically states in the footer of one of VAT's web pages, "This site is not affiliated with the FAA, the actual Atlanta Center or any governing aviation body. All content contained herein is approved only for use on the VATSIM network."

[Brad Littlejohn]

Then Dennis, let's just come to this as you're so adamant on splitting hairs with words. You go on thinking that it is a game and not up to snuff for you. We will go on thinking that it is simulation, as we do our best to simulate real world procedures. But don't ever try to force your opinions on to other people, such as you've been doing with your past few posts. We're plenty capable of coming up with our own.

 

But the offer still stands. If you don't like what you see here, nobody wants to take you prisoner.

 

BL.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

PS, as Joe said.

 

Here's a little test that you can perform. If you are a real pilot it's even better. Go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of flight. Please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

Now, hop on VATSIM, go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of fight. Remember, please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

It won't be 5 minutes before you receive a text message demanding you contact the controller, and possibly a boot from a Sup for not participating, or accused of an unattended connection.

 

As real as it gets huh !

[Mike Cassel 849958]

PS, as Joe said.

 

Here's a little test that you can perform. If you are a real pilot it's even better. Go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of flight. Please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

Now, hop on VATSIM, go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of fight. Remember, please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

It won't be 5 minutes before you receive a text message demanding you contact the controller, and possibly a boot from a Sup for not participating, or accused of an unattended connection.

 

As real as it gets huh !

At least in ZLA, you will get exactly that-uninterrupted flight. I've flown in and around the west coast many many times, into small airports that aren't controlled...and guess what? Nobody .contactme's me, or anything else of the sort. ZLA also has an active group of pilots that go fly VFR, and they get the same exact same treatment as I do.

 

Just because some controllers treat it as a "game" or "want to have a good time" and demand VFR pilots call them, doesn't mean that there aren't places where controllers, who take the game seriously, know exactly what to do with VFR aircraft and will always leave them alone if they are operating within your conditions.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Sorry to inform you, I purposely tested the theory in several locations. Including LA. Your Center controller didn't last 3 minutes before he hit the .contact me buton. I just signed off, and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed it of as typical. I specifically tailored my flight to remain clear of any controlled airspsce to test my theory.

 

Not to be worried, 4 out of 5 ARTCCs did the same.

 

D

[Mike Cassel 849958]

Feel free to send me the details- [email protected]

 

Believe it or not, I care about that, and appropriate action will be taken if there is any substance to it.

 

Looking forward to your e-mail,

 

Mike C[Mod - Happy Thoughts]el

ZLA Training Administrator

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Sorry to inform you, I purposely tested the theory in several locations. Including LA. Your Center controller didn't last 3 minutes before he hit the .contact me buton. I just signed off, and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed it of as typical. I specifically tailored my flight to remain clear of any controlled airspsce to test my theory.

 

Not to be worried, 4 out of 5 ARTCCs did the same.

 

What are you even arguing? You say in some of your posts that things have gotten too strict, there are always noob pilots, and so we controllers shouldn't be so uptight in following real world procedures. So what is your point in this post...sounds like your kind of sky!