Sunshine & Lollipops

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Dennis, welcome back! I never thought I'd see the day. Ha ha!

 

In any event, what is wrong with making new phraseology "mandatory" here on VATSIM? We are striving for realism no? At what point then do we stop caring about phraseology, or what limits do we place on how much we care? "You can go on up to twenty four thousand feet whenever you want." "Go ahead and drive over to runway thirteen L good buddy. 10-4 on that one." Is that okay? I mean...there has to be some sort of realism or VATSIM will amount to nothing more than the Zone. I realize you wanted to basically lift all the requirements for controller proficiency, get rid of individual ARTCCs (and their staffs), and just make VATUSA more or less a big free-for-all, where anybody could jump on any position (including center if you'd believe that!) with little to no training. The ideas were so incredibly bizarre that the BOG and Richard Jenkins himself had to step in and stop the ridiculousness. C'mon now! And eliminating the realism is great and all...except that's not what VATSIM is all about. The spirit of VATSIM (at least the VATSIM I know), is a continual strive for realism. That realism is what brings fun and enjoyment to the "game." If you don't want realism, you can go over to the Zone or fly offline using FS's built-in ATC. If you want a more realistic experience, you come to VATSIM.

 

Regarding your VFR flight, I'd be willing to bet you failed to turn your transponder on, and were flying around in standby. There is no center controller I know at ZLA who is going to send you a .contactme when you're VFR, unless of course you're busting airspace, squawking standby, or took off from or landed at a controlled field. I'm sure you have the squawkbox logs from your experiment. Or these just more made-up statistics?

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

My point is:

 

Nice way to keep the membership up. "I will take the approiate action" The poor guys was just playing the game and thought it was the right thing to do to contact me. There is no need to punish the guy, and I will not rat on him. Rather than confront the situation, I just signed off.

 

It doesn't matter. Even if he hadn't read a precise and proper TAXI instruction that this discussion is all about, he was just playing the game and having fun, but got caught up in the polictics and thought he might get into trouble because I wasn't under his control.

 

It is just a game, and now some poor participant might get a pink slip. Sad

 

The real point is, in a real simulaiton, he coudn't have sent a chat message to me. Nor could he have seen anything but a primary target since I wasn't required to have a transponder in that particualr airspace. Game vs Sim. ???

 

D

[Lance Williams]

PS, as Joe said.

 

Here's a little test that you can perform. If you are a real pilot it's even better. Go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of flight. Please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

Now, hop on VATSIM, go to your local "small airport" Hop in your Cessna, announce your intentions on unicom, and go enjoy an uninterupted few hours of fight. Remember, please remain clear of any A,B,C or D airspace

 

It won't be 5 minutes before you receive a text message demanding you contact the controller, and possibly a boot from a Sup for not participating, or accused of an unattended connection.

 

As real as it gets huh !

 

I've done that many times and my VATSIM experience was just as you described the "real" experience. I can see why you are no longer USA1 though. You continue to make that point crystal clear.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

As a foot note, I have heard the following coming into Atlanta, MIami, and LA in the real world.

 

"Ya'll have a gooden, ten four, roger doger, slow it down son, better throw out the brakes, you wanna make a bird strke report, struck from behind by a bird?"

 

Oh, and the oc[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ional "proper phrasology". At least I know I'm speaking with a professional, someone that understands the gravity of the clearance, but can convey it in an understandable phrasology

 

D

[Mike Cassel 849958]

My point is:

 

Nice way to keep the membership up. "I will take the approiate action" The poor guys was just playing the game and thought it was the right thing to do to contact me. There is no need to punish the guy, and I will not rat on him. Rather than confront the situation, I just signed off.

It is just a game, and now some poor participant might get a pink slip. Sad

 

D

 

Nobody is getting pink slips here. That is rather funny you'd think that though. Actually, I come more from the perspective, like everyone else at ZLA, that we all try and get better every day, and learn new things. Appropriate action is not, hand me your badge, you're fired.

 

Appropriate action is probably more like, "some guy on the VATSIM forums mentioned that he was flying around ZLA while you were controlling, and got .contactme'd while VFR...apparently didn't have his transponder on...remember anything about it? No? Ok, thanks". Mistakes happen, nobody is out to get anyone.

 

In any case, I could certainly understand the contactme message, considering you didn't have your transponder on, and it is a rule for VATSIM purposes that you do have it on. I incidentally don't agree with that rule, but a rule it is. For all you know, the controller was just trying to remind you of that, and would have then let you on your merry way.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Gotta run for now. Work is calling. Sure wish me and the FO could pull up VAT SPY to see how busy we were going to be this afternoon. And I'd love to email my Sister while were at cruise. But I really hope that ATC doesn't text me about our speed, and my supervisor doesnt "take approaite action" if we deviate. BTW, we can do 300 below 10 on a high speed departure. Isn't life grand? But, since we're flying in a non radar envirement, the controllers won't be able to see our deviations. Bet they wish they had the Realistic VAT software

 

Oh, I can't wait to hear the familiar MIA south controler say is her usual hispanic tone, 3395 --adios amigo. Shoud I report her to the authorities?

 

See ya'll tonight....

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Gotta run for now. Work is calling. Sure wish me and the FO could pull up VAT SPY to see how busy we were going to be this afternoon. And I'd love to email my Sister while were at cruise. But I really hope that ATC doesn't text me about our speed, and my supervisor doesnt "take approaite action" if we deviate. BTW, we can do 300 below 10 on a high speed departure. Isn't life grand? But, since we're flying in a non radar envirement, the controllers won't be able to see our deviations. Bet they wish they had the Realistic VAT software

 

I'm sure you'll find something entertaining to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the time while en-route. Perhaps think of some more immature, degrading, and nonsensical posts for these forums? You don't need to simulate that, it's very real!

[Brad Littlejohn]

Gotta run for now.

 

Run, Forrest! Run!

 

Work is calling. Sure wish me and the FO could pull up VAT SPY to see how busy we were going to be this afternoon. And I'd love to email my Sister while were at cruise.

 

What you do at cruise, we really don't care about. Although, with how you've acted here over the past few days, I feel really sorry for those p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers who paid serious money for the horrid service you are to be providing to them. They deserve a refund, as well as a "request" by your "FO" to not work with you.

 

But I really hope that ATC doesn't text me about our speed, and my supervisor doesnt "take approaite action" if we deviate.

 

Pink slip, you're fired. How sad.

 

BTW, we can do 300 below 10 on a high speed departure. Isn't life grand?

 

Life is even more grand when I jump on a flight and realize that the pilot flying the plane isn't you. Life would be even more grand than that, when I find out that the pilot I do have flying my flight can spell properly.

 

But, since we're flying in a non radar envirement, the controllers won't be able to see our deviations. Bet they wish they had the Realistic VAT software

 

Like I said, I feel for your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers. I truly do.

 

I have to agree with Lance. It is quite clear to see why you are no longer USA1. Speaking of, you never decided on that offer. So I'll put it another way.. IVAO is next door, and they are hurting for US controllers. An entire continent all for your use for a playground/sandbox. You should be salivating over that.

 

Oh, I can't wait to hear the familiar MIA south controler say is her usual hispanic tone, 3395 --adios amigo. Shoud I report her to the authorities?

 

See ya'll tonight....

 

MOCHa HAGoTDI... Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeya!!

 

BL.

[Keith Smith]

Dennis,

 

You continue to say "it's a game, it's not real." We know it's not real. The fun is in simulating real world procedures to the extent possible. Yes, many pilots can't comply with the instructions we give, that's a reality of not qualifying the people who fly on the network, it comes with the territory. Does that means we shouldn't strive to do it the 'right' way? No, it does not. There are enough good pilots who know the difference and appreciate the service. That, and it's fun LEARNING how to do it the right way to begin with, it's part of the challenge, and part of the game.

 

The fact that you're getting such a warm reception, coupled with the fact that you continue to post controversial topics seems to indicate that you're not actually interested in serious discourse on these topics, rather, you're looking to stir the pot. It's clearly working, because you are pissing off a lot of people. I will agree with Dan, btw, more than anything else, it IS depressing to see someone who held such a position speaking this way.

 

Next time you fly around 'testing' controllers, how about actually HELPING them by RESPONDING to the contactme and saying "I'm outside of B/C/D airspace, why were you calling me?" That's what I do. To date, every single controller has thanked me for helping them out. It usually starts a fun discussions about VFR. Instead, you simply disconnect. You've wasted your time, and the controller has learned nothing.

[Keith Smith]

...he was just playing the game and having fun, but got caught up in the polictics and thought he might get into trouble because I wasn't under his control.

How did you know what he was thinking? You logged off without responding, right?

 

It is just a game, and now some poor participant might get a pink slip. Sad Sad

This is so far off base, it's actually comical.

[Ross Carlson]

This thread has gone on long enough that I'm actually starting to feel embarr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed for Dennis ... he just can't stop.

 

Guys, let's stop "feeding the troll", please. He's clearly just trying to get a rise out of everyone ... it's the only explanation for why he's still hanging around this place that he clearly has such a strong distaste for.

 

We all know the reality, that being that VATSIM is different for each of us ... to some it's a game, to some it's a simulation ... for most of us I'd bet it's somewhere in between. There is no need to label it as one or the other.

[Joe Caban 844086]

in ZTL a C3 can cert on all positions in less than a day.... what more do you want? Should we say he should be able to control in ZTL within 2 hours??? immediately??

 

I don't disagree D, but what do you expect??? I spent alot of time learning the finesse of control...years because i love to do it. What ZTL is designed to hinder are the impulsive I wanna get on now and control then I realize Im not really interested types. THey don't make this place any better anyway.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Wow, a lot of fan mail. I’m impressed.

 

It might go off from the topic for this particular thread, but I want to talk about that transponder thingy someone mentioned in a minute, however, I wanted to address a few of the previous post first.

 

Nick, we did talk (above 10) about VATSIM. I’ll have to admit, I really did miss a lot the VATSIM realistic conveniences this afternoon. However, my FO did raise some interesting questions about the game. We also were told at one point “Come on down to 230 for meâ€

[Ingo Harders]

As a pilot I think the new rules are great. (sorry to get back to the original topic..remember on page one?).

From now on no more parking close to "Golf" and asking for an intersection departure just to make sure I do not get lost. No sir, I am selling my navi, tomtom, garmin or whatever that little thingy with the buttons is called and will expect detailed taxi instructions from now on.

I also do not agree with KS's statement that APP or CTR cannot learn all the airport diagrams under his control. Come on Keith, if you don't have at least 20 aircraft to control you sound too routine or bored even . I promise I'll go easy on you for starters and will depart from KSMO next time you're on.I will ask for progressive taxi.

 

Regards

N405HT

[Richard Jenkins]

I was going to try and clean up the entire thread then gave up. Could we possibly get somewhere back in the universe of where this thread started? You don't have to agree with what people say but you do have to be civil and not insulting. Yes, it can be hard at times.

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

Well I'm not going to quote VATSIM COR's, or the 7110.65, but is all boils down to the simple question, are the VATSIM controllers able to make it happen?

 

My answer is YES when a trained local controller is online, and if center is not too busy. If the only controller is Center and working a lot of pilots, chances are you won't get a detailed taxi instruction.

 

Game/Simulation? Whatever you call it, it's VATSIM and it's what a lot of us like to "get better", be it a pilot or ATC, heck that's what sets VATSIM apart from the "ZONE".

 

Hey guys, let's not berate a member here, lets get online as controllers and kick some a$$!

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Learn it yes. Mandate to use it, NO !

 

It will surely scare the noobs away for sure. Gerry, I agree with our earlier discussion, you have to know your customer. Listen to them and use whatever tactic to make them have a sucessful experience. I can't count the times that I've monitored a controller using the "proper FAA phrasology" and intimadate a new pilot "member" I guess thay though it was cool to be "exact" The pilot usually logged of and was never seen again. Especially at the GND TWR level where the noob is beginning his/her experience. They won't know progressive taxi from boo. Give em a left right nudge and they will eventually catch on.

 

Even the real guys know how to handle a seasoned vs new pilot. The minute a controller tries to be robotic, the situation usually ends up with more confusion.

 

D

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

As far as the mods, if you mod one member as "off topic", you have to mod them all when "off topic". Otherwise, it appears as discrimination and a witch hunt

Embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing to say the least.

 

D

[Richard Jenkins]

As far as the mods, if you mod one member as "off topic", you have to mod them all when "off topic". Otherwise, it appears as discrimination and a witch hunt

Embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing to say the least.

 

D

 

 

Thank you for writing, your comments have been duly noted.

[Joe Caban 844086]

If you don't mandate it, the bad apples won't do it and will be on Center providing horrible service. One point I have always made, and the main reason vZTL has no written tests in the training program, is phraseology and formality in the hobby environment affords the network no benefit...it's all about the ability of the controller even if he slouches on the phrases...but the ability takes more time to teach than silly parrot phrases.

 

Problem with what your suggesting Dennis is half[Mod - Happy Thoughts] controllers will be up on Center ruining everyone elses fun because they don't have a clue. I am sick and tired of the C1s and C3s (and Instructors) who have the phraseology down but have no skill as a controller... it diminishes the pilot's experience and causes the team to buckle.

 

 

By the way, with regards to your sectorization comment....which I have had the pleasure of hearing frequently... we just hosted an ATLANTA LIVE a week ago and we had 3 Centers, 2 approaches, 2 towers, a ground, and 3 flight data....but due to traffic levels needed MORE positions open. we actually had enough demand for 2 finals, a feeder, and a departure controller, as well as 2 more arrival/departure center positions.

 

It is a game but I think you forget it is a game of skill, strategy, and TEAMWORK! It sounds to me like you are suggesting we open up the game of scrabble to people who never learned how to read and write. There is a point to the game...

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Gosh Joe, we used to have 4 centers, 2 lower centers, 2 approach, 2 departure, 2 tower, 2 gnd, and delivery, not to mention CLT fully staffed! Where has everyone gone? Maybe the mandated complexity has scared everyone off

 

I tend to agree with you on one hand, expeience has to take the lead. Any body can recite from the book. But you have to know the true reason for the script. But on the other hand, this is only a video game, and you're not going to find that many sharp people to play the game. Thus, you end up with a skeleton crew while the rest sit on the sidelines and eventually go away.

 

Just like the new mandatory taxi thingy. That can scare a noob controller to death, and totally intimadate them. Plus, as in my case, I could have been on CTR tonight and provided some type of service to the pilots. Thus, ZTL and LA were both dark tonight. In the period I was on, ZTL had no controllers, and LA had one trainee and an instructer. And a hand full of pilots. At 8:00 in prime time??? Come on.

 

Mandating this stuff will evetually be the death of VATSIM. We do have to let the noobs play, and learn. Making it more complicated will only deplete the participation. I don't have a good answer. But it does have to be accepeted as a video game, and the folks that come along with it.

 

When I took over ZTL, it was a 3 position game. Better known as the CTR, APP, TWR boys club. I broadened the positions, and let a lot more play the game. We eventually had the largest roster in VATSIM. Look at it now. Look at serve info. It's pitiful across the entire region. However, if I don't sit thought the 6 hour, one day, "whatever it takes" recert ritual, an empty scope go unatended.

 

In closing, it's not my posts that have helped the depletion of controllers and pilots. It's Member's offensive and distastful signatures, useage of the words half a--- ,and the Presidents discriminating tactics to it's members. I would imagine that some of our younger member's parents look at this hobby, and have the children stay away.

 

Mandate the new rules if you wish. require the participants to shape up or ship out as someone said earlier, or brow beat them and "take the apporiate action" if they screw up. You think serve info is sp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] now? Continue the current path. I've recieved several emails over the past few days. Most saying that they would still be on, but it's way too political and complicated.

 

Break---

 

Thanks for the Apology Richard. I appreciate it.

[Joe Caban 844086]

if you want to debate performance numbers then let's not skew them.

 

- Our first Atlanta Live event, which was in February, AFTER the implementation of the new material in December, and 24 controllers were online all night. vZTL has NEVER had 24 controllers online during any event...EVER! I was at every event during your one year tenure, and we never had more than 16 online.

 

- When I took over as ATM, from you, ZTL was still a 3 man game. Before the strike and resignations it was a 6 man game during non event times.

 

- When I took over as ATM, the roster was 160 controllers. I did an audit and there were only 94 that had controlled at least 30 minutes within the past 12 months. We reduced that number even further when we took guys off who hadn't controlled or trained for 30 minutes within the past 6 months.

 

- When the new procedures were implemented, our traffic and participation numbers rose dramatically. They ONLY fell off because of the aftermath concerning my removal as ATM. In case you are not aware there was a 22 man controller strike for three weeks and every Instructor plus the TA and all but 2 mentors resigned. ANY CLAIM YOU MAKE ABOUT PARTICIPATION in vZTL being down due to procedures is foolish and baseless. vZTL has not yet recovered from it.

 

 

Once again, i agree it is a game but you're suggesting that we are all too dumb to do it better and I would be BORED controlling that way. To be honest, I almost quit controlling on VATSIM while participating in one of the prior ZTL events because the controllers were clueless of both how to work traffic and how to work together.

 

The only people who get scared away are LAZY or weak minded individuals. I'm a winner and I can handle anything you or anyway here throws at me. I hope your goal of quantity over quality and purpose never comes to light. It's already bad enough as it is.

[Joe Caban 844086]

However, if I don't sit thought the 6 hour, one day, "whatever it takes" recert ritual, an empty scope go unatended.

 

correct...because fair is fair and you (or whomever) haven't earned it.

 

 

Once again, the question stands... what do you expect? No training? One hour? Two? What do you want? Make all training optional? You haven't said what you want to accomplish other than say it's too strict. What do you expect?

 

 

P.S. Gary can no longer fire me for debating in a forum! How funny is that. =)

[Alan Hensley 950569]

Dennis, when you "disappeared" from your USA1 position, I wandered where you went. I tend to think the Bermuda Triangel by what I am seeing I find it very interesting though, that you have changed your attitude towards the realism factor that you had when you were ZTL ATM. IF you try to say you didn't, I want to remind you of MORE than one private message you sent me, (what, a year and a half ago?), asking me to PLEASE leave ZME and come take your TA position. Man, I WISH I had saved those comments. What was that one thing you said? Something like you being impressed with my realism, knowing I was retired RW, and wanting to have THAT at ZTL? What was it I said? I had given Wes my word that I would not do him that way? You may conveniently not remember that but I SURE DO

 

You are hilarious

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

...and probably discipline him/her for not quoting them precisely, is absurd. Quote from someone earlierâ€