Sunshine & Lollipops

[Kevin Henderson 976708]

Just like the new mandatory taxi thingy. That can scare a noob controller to death, and totally intimadate them.

 

I'm confused. What makes it so scary? Instead of "Taxi to rwy 26L" they have to say something like "Taxi to rwy 26L via F4 E." If that is enough to scare a new controller then he is really going to have a really hard time as his training progresses.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Removed my own post, it isn't needed.

Edited May 23, 2008 at 07:35 PM by Guest

[Steven Perry]

I think we'd be all better off if we took our FAAO7110.65 changes more seriously than our VATSIM job titles.

 

Just saying...

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

We're way off topic here again.

 

So, are you guys saying that it would a good thing to "mandate" not only the new FAA TAXI procedures, but all FAA procedures? Here's my real take on that. If you want to go all out, then you need to all the way. There will need to be a supervisor on to police all of this. You need to do just a s the real guys do. Have a SUP, locally appointed ARTCC SUP, to be on each and every thime a controller is on. Someone standing over a controller's shoulder, monitoting each and every transmission. In addtion, a tape recorder for accident investigation and verification.

 

As it is now, no one moniotors what is said on a minute by minute basis. How would you know if something was wrong and contrary to the rules? Most of you have a "Pilot Survey" function. And unless someone complains, you never really know what is said. We got a lot more praises in ZTl than complaints. Probably true for most ARTCCs. But when there was one complaint, the whole "big time" investigation process was initiated. The "Appropriate Action Taken) ordeal !

 

There aren't enough members to staff such a task. I know, here it comes. No one monitors the smaller airports in the real world. Correct. But you guys can only staff the biggies. And we do know there is tape running at Atlanta, Chicago, Miami,RW bla bla bla.

 

If your're going to do it right then do it right. Make it really really really real! Mandate it all, or not at all.

 

The only reason the feds are doing it is to cover the behind in the case of an incident / accident. Not a bad game plan for safety's sake. But the Kentucky accident didn't have VATSIM software, nor any ground Radar. Everyone was doing their routien jobs. I'm no even going to fault the pilots. We get extremely complacent in all jobs. For you guys that have never been in a real cockpit before, flying is the easy part. the real job consist of checklists, head counts, catering, trend monitoring, squak list, company radio transmissions, and a whole lot of other paperwork. Scarey, but it's a heads down environment most of the time. How did they pick the wrong runway you might ask? Dark, heads down work in progress, complacency, and "expected" visual environment. When you do it day after day after day, one runway environment looks just like the rest. You never really kow where you are. You satisfy the needles, read the taxi signs, pull up to some gate named B-22., fill out the paperwork, and walk down to gate A-5 for yuor next task. Unfortunatley, this is the real world. You pull out to a runway, thinking you have it all right. Heads down to only catch the dim lights of some familar paint on a rubber covered centerline, push up the throttles, loot at N-1, do the call outs, and wait to hear 80 knots, V!, VR, Raise your head, and them hopefully have time to get out (oh [Mod - lovely stuff]). Sad, but the real day to day world. We only hope to learn from mistakes.

 

Here cones the bashing, I can hear it now. "thats a prime reason for the new rules to be mandated". We, as professional aviators, and ATC, hope nothing goes wrong. I don't think anyone, "except on VATSIM" gets up and says, lets screw up today. Rules are hinesighted, we al lknow that.

 

Here's another example, (RW) RNAV DPs were created for efficiency and Safety. However, in Atlanta (RW), they diverted back to vectored departures, or at least until the MM. Too much red tape got in the way of flying. They had more safety concers with cross runway DP mistakes to the first waypoint that ever before until they went back to Vectored DPs. So much for mandated procedures huh?

 

We all try and do our best. But this VATSIM thigy will never be the real thingy. Pretend all you want, but in this arena, it will only scare away the want to be's that enjoy it. Just like singing in the bath tub. It's been proven time afer time after time. Each time one of these mandatory thingys comes along, the membership dwindles.

 

[MOD - Ongoing DCRM process. Text removed. RJ 800012]

 

D

 

D

Edited May 23, 2008 at 05:18 PM by Guest

[Wade Williams 877539]

The day that VATSIM gives up on its quest to simulate what little part of reality we can is the day I leave VATSIM.

 

If I want controllers who don't have a clue, don't care and aren't trying, there are multiple outlets for that and we don't need that on VATSIM (and we need to try to resolve it where it exists). I certainly agree that things have been known to swing too far in the other direction as well. But the attempt to simulate reality, no matter how pathetic compared to the real world, is what makes it fun. As a pilot, the LAST thing I want is some untrained yahoo saying, "Oh, don't worry about it, just do whatever you find fun."

 

If we keep up our effort to simulate whatever portion of reality we can, continual improvements occur which will allow us to edge closer and closer as time goes along. The fact that we're not even close at the moment doesn't mean we should give up and just make it a free-for-all. And the fact that sometimes people get on ego trips, hand down poor decisions, make ridiculous requirements, etc is no reason to s[Mod - lovely stuff] the effort either. Time marches on, eventually people leave / are replaced / have a change of heart, etc, and we all continue with our hobby.

[Brad Littlejohn]

 

Just like the new mandatory taxi thingy. That can scare a noob controller to death, and totally intimadate them. Plus, as in my case, I could have been on CTR tonight and provided some type of service to the pilots. Thus, ZTL and LA were both dark tonight. In the period I was on, ZTL had no controllers, and LA had one trainee and an instructer. And a hand full of pilots. At 8:00 in prime time??? Come on.

 

Not for nothing, but you may want to come back with proper stats to back this up. I can guarantee you that there was Center coverage up till 2am this morning, while stats show you spent a piffle hour on at MCN_TWR. Coverage at ZLA consisting of 2 GND with above mentioned instructor, 3 TWR, and 3 at CTR, including yours truly until 2am.

 

While trivial, if you're going to boast a claim like that, have the stats to back up your claim.

 

So here's a question. Where are you when your sector is dead late at night? Stats here can prove that I've kept ZLA lit up until 6 or 7am in the morning PST/PDT while I hadn't seen hide nor hair of you. I've had compliments given by people on the other side of the planet for staying up late to provide them service on what would be an otherwise quiet, dead flight across the country, let alone .

 

So, where are you and this 'type of service' you provide? Because I don't see it, and haven't in a very long time, if at all.

 

Mandate the new rules if you wish. require the participants to shape up or ship out as someone said earlier, or brow beat them and "take the apporiate action" if they screw up. You think serve info is sp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] now? Continue the current path. I've recieved several emails over the past few days. Most saying that they would still be on, but it's way too political and complicated.

 

Here's my question.. After the ramblings you've had going in this and other threads, and that you went off to work as a pilot and flying around, why should this matter to you now? It sounds to us like you have better, more important things to do. So why spend your time whinging about things here?

 

Doesn't the world need Dennis H. Whitley more?

 

BL.

Edited May 23, 2008 at 06:07 PM by Guest

[Ross Carlson]

If your're going to do it right then do it right. Make it really really really real! Mandate it all, or not at all.

 

Why do you only see things in such extremes? Are you blind to the fact that there is a middle ground that serves our interests quite well and allows the hobby to remain enjoyable?

 

We mandate or require plenty of things throughout VATSIM, without SUPs constantly monitoring each frequency for compliance. The suggestion that we need such policing in order to mandate policies is nonsense.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Gerry, you misread my point. I agreed with you. What I said was, you can't take your ARTCC's mandate to "DO IT RIGHT OR ELSE" mentality. Do as you exactly did. Take the time to explain it to a noob. The problem is, "you" will be ridiculed if you don't read the clearance exactly. Thats why we wanted to take ZAU and turn it into a noob facility. (I'll have to give Craig credit for that one though) I preferred a "West Coast facility"

 

Lets back stab AJ Doubleday because he liked to run things more organized and professional, and dremt of a more realistic ZAU on VATSIM, screw all of effort he put in - none of it matters because he doesn't see things like Dennis Whitley (and I wonder why?). We'll just back him into a corner in any way we possibly can. We'll just punish those who actually try to be more realistic, god-forbid, living up to the theory behind this network of trying to simulate the actual air traffic environment. And believe me, I'm well aware of who all was involved in the "Plan Can Chicago Center" ordeal - and I'm not happy with anyone behind it, including you, Craig. I'm just happy that those who read the forum know about it now - if they didn't before. Further proof into how politically driven this has gotten...

 

At least here, at ZLA, I can rest in comfort knowing that what happened at ZAU will not happen here, and, on top of that, I can actually live up to my potential and fulfill those expectations you stripped from me (and others from the ZAU team).

 

It flat-out amazes me how incredibly unethical you were, and blatantly still are, Dennis...

 

 

-AJ

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

How much more off topic can we get, and still not have "MODS" to other members?

 

So, what specifically is it in the new regs that eveyone is so bent out of shape about? Other than the fact that some non real pilot / controller saw it in a press release, and thought it would be cool to republish? Why has this all of a sudden so important to Mandate? There are thousands of other more important real world publications that would really matter to the network

 

Case in point, and this one is from TSA and The FAA. Flight instruction may not be given by a Non Certified Flight Instructor. The Instructor must also inquire and have the applicant show proof of identification (P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]port / Picture ID) Otherwise, information may fall into the wrong hands, and the feds want to know who they might be. So, to stay real, is the new Pilot Training Department going to adhere to the regs? And mandate them

 

Simulation is now somewhat more recognised as part of flight training than ever before. So, if you want to continue to call it "Simulation", better bone up on the new regs!!!

 

Again, learning the regs are fine, But what is wrong with TAXI to RW 26 R ? Especially when there is only one airplane occupying the feild?

 

D

[Stephen Sculley-Beaman]

Agreed !

 

However, and I have always said this, you can't rattle off a lengthy complex taxi clearance to a noob 14 year old.

 

As a former "noob 14 year old" who flew on vatsim quite regularly, allow me to be the first (probably not) to say you are ignorant. Being 14 doesn't mean the person is a "noob," as you put it. If they're on here in the first place, they are probably not the typical kid.

 

And since when does a taxi clearance with taxiway names qualify as "complex," much less scare people off?

 

 

Anyways, I think that those on VATSIM like myself who would rather make the most realistic experience for VATSIM pilots should go for giving full clearances with the directions. Make it a matter of personal choice. Sending out a notam saying "Yo, by the way, you gotta do this" isn't going to make others abide by it.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

My apologies Stephen, let me re-clarify noob. Any new member is considerd a noob. Even the President used the term "Save a noob" It has nothing to do with age. A retired 80 year old Airline Transport Pilot with 20,000 hours can be a noob.

 

Noob was devised to identify any new member. I've seen a lot of 14 year olds that were prety good. However, maturity does come with age. We pick on our noob FOs all the time. Regardless of their age. The yourger members and nooobs do often cause the most issues here on the Network. Don't take it personally.

 

However, if you are considering this as a career, please seek the advice of a professional. Don't take what you read here as the gospil. You can learn all of the republished information all you want. However, when you get into the real world, you will find it much diferent. Just try and not pick up any bad habbits here on the network fromthe want to be's.

 

And you are right, when do taxiway names scare people off? It's not the TW name name that sacres you off, as you further yourself with this hobby, you will find that the Forums and Pilot surveys bashing you because you didn't read the clearance to the letter, and use the correct TW name, is what scares them off.

 

D

Edited May 23, 2008 at 08:09 PM by Guest

[Andrew Doubleday]

Also, to put this on track a bit more (sorry Dennis, you'll consistently have it coming regardless of what you say)...

 

I'll be as damned realistic about taxi instructions as I want... If someone starts getting lost, then I'll start using non-standard phraseology (aka plain English) to get them where they're going... there is a reason for standardized phraseology though - its there to remain consistent, thereby reducing confusion among the system. If a 14 year old noob doesn't understand it right off the bat, that’s fine, but we'll teach it to them by repetition if that’s the case.

 

I love how you come across as such a guru with this Dennis... you're like many other pilots I've met who think they know about ATC when really, they don't know a thing about how it or the national airspace system works at all... its funny, being under your management was much like being under FAA management in that aspect. You're just too full of it to ever realize that fact though... that or maybe that laid back lifestyle down in the islands has just gone to your head (referencing your posts about your flights).

 

Oh, and I think the reason our posts aren't being modded as yours are because everyone knows how ridiculous everything is you have to say, and how true everything is others are saying and, again, you've just had it coming (since last July)...

 

 

-AJ

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

If the mod thingy is true, then what does that say about the management.

 

Please please please try and keep this thread on track. BTW, Stephen, he just called you a 14 year old noob.

 

So, did anyone have the answer to the above question about what is so specific in the new regs to "Mandate them" ?

 

D

[Edward McCoy 904185]

I love how you come across as such a guru with this Dennis... you're like many other pilots I've met who think they know about ATC

 

Ding! I know so many pilots that think they know EVERYTHING about ATC and the NAS. It's boosts their ego until someone eventually brings them down to size.

[Andrew Doubleday]

If the mod thingy is true, then what does that say about the management.

 

Please please please try and keep this thread on track. BTW, Stephen, he just called you a 14 year old noob.

 

So, did anyone have the answer to the above question about what is so specific in the new regs to "Mandate them" ?

 

D

 

 

I'm flat out done with this... feel free to stop by the ZLA forum if you really want to make an argument about it... I (and others) can be a bit less restrictive there and more blunt...

 

 

-AJ

[Alex Bailey 969331]

If the mod thingy is true, then what does that say about the management.

 

Please please please try and keep this thread on track. BTW, Stephen, he just called you a 14 year old noob.

 

So, did anyone have the answer to the above question about what is so specific in the new regs to "Mandate them" ?

 

D

 

Where did AJ make any reference to Stephen, or him being a "noob"? He didn't.

 

Nobody has said that new regulations are being mandated. This started out as a simple heads up about how the real world is handling phraseology and taxi procedures. Not once has it been mandated that you must do this or get banned by a SUP, which isn't even their job so not sure how that is being used as a reason? It is simply a heads up about the new procedures and ARTCCs can decide if they want to try and use them or not. Membership isn't declining and people aren't leaving because they are being introduced to new and updated procedures. I can speak for ZMA, and it is thriving with new members as well as older members who are still around. I'm sure ZLA, ZAU, and the rest of them are encountering the same.

[Richard Jenkins]

If the mod thingy is true, then what does that say about the management.

 

D

 

It says this:

 

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/?Media=PlayFlash

 

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Fair game Ed. I think the stats show that there are many Controllers that are not pilots either. However, I do personally know a RW controller that once drove a Baron Pilot into a hillside. The controller never had spent a minute in a cockpit. We all have our professions, and try to do the best we can. There was also the accident at DCA many many years ago where a controller took a 72 into a 4000 ft hill at 3000. We all have our faults and bad days.

 

An old joke, How can you pick out a pilot at a cocktail party? He will tell you he's a pilot! But we paid a lot of money to be called that, might was well get our money's worth. Otherwise, your neighborhood physician wouldn't use the term DR.

 

What is the difference between God and a Pilot, God doesn't go around telling everybody he's a pilot. And neither shoud VATSIMers go aroud calling themselves controllers.

 

D

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Sorry to hear that Mr. Jenkins, I had no Idea. I'm glad you got some help. Admission is always a good first step.

 

D

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Alex, AJ said: Page 6:

 

"I'll be as damned realistic about taxi instructions as I want... If someone starts getting lost, then I'll start using non-standard phraseology (aka plain English) to get them where they're going... there is a reason for standardized phraseology though - its there to remain consistent, thereby reducing confusion among the system. If a 14 year old noob doesn't understand it right off the bat, that’s fine, but we'll teach it to them by repetition if that’s the case. "

[Alex Bailey 969331]

I don't see Stephen mentioned, which is why I asked.

[Richard Jenkins]

Admission is always a good first step.

 

D

 

Yes it is....

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Admission is always a good first step.

 

D

 

Yes it is....

 

Admission is a good first step, but you have to follow through with the commitment. I see people in the ER all the time who went to AA once, but here we are sticking the IV and trying to lower their BAL

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Agreed, and some countries take it even more seriously!

 

We have to Pee in the bottle twice a week down here. Helps keep the skies safer Matter of fact, I gotta do that today before the fllight!

 

Sorry I have to leave all of this fun, Duty calls. See you guys Sunday.

 

D

[Stephen Sculley-Beaman]

Sorry to hear that Mr. Jenkins, I had no Idea. I'm glad you got some help. Admission is always a good first step.

 

D

 

"Hi, I'm Dennis. I'm a...."