Heathrow Eastbound operations criteria

[Matthew Lewis 878286]

a. At my flight academy we learnt when I started flying in 1963, that such wind swing doesn't exist in our atmosphere. Its changes are much more gradual in both direction and magnitude. 10 degree direction and 5 knot magnitude per 1000 feet change is more like it in meaningful weather at low altitude.

 

Such wind changes in direction and height are certainly possible and are frequently observed around the world. I have regularly witnessed calm surface flow and a 50-60kt 500m flow on radial velocity imagery taken from the US WSR-88D radar network. Similarly, under extremely stable boundary layer conditions, weak vertical mixing of the lowest layers of the atmosphere preclude strong winds aloft penetrating to the surface. This is often seen in the UK with 5-10kt flow at the surface and 30-40kt flow at 2000ft.

 

The 2000ft flow often provides controllers with a better idea to the behaviour of the wind in marginal surface conditions when building induced turbulence can have a greater impact on anemometer readings. Therefore, even a few hundred feet above threshold level will you start seeing a significant change in the flow which is represented well by the flow aloft. Such flow aloft is often stronger and can provide a more long term view at the overall flow pattern that will be expected for the next 2-3 hours at the airport and the terminal area, negating any need to constantly switch runways based on marginal changes in a slack surface wind regime.

[Robert Piper 1001024]

How does the tower controller know the wind at altitude in the VATSIM atmosphere?

 

Dunno if anyones answered this but they director asks the pilots for spot wind checks, so they know what vectoring adjustments need to be made

 

Rob

[Kayleigh Young 1060779]

Opher, I'm sorry you didn't get the answer's you were looking for. You asked earlier how a tower controller selects the runways. Of course SFC wind is the primary decider at most airfields but other conditions may push against this. Details are listed in the MATS/MFIS Pt 2 for the particular unit but for instance, at Biggin Hill because only runway 21 has an ILS and 03 did not the preferred runway is 21, if say the wind was any direction at less than 6kts we could use runway 21, if however the wind was stronger than 6kts we should use the runway that will provides the least tailwind component, however because for instance 03 was in use anything coming in procedurally or down the ILS would have to break into a visual circuit (03LH) but this may not be available in poor visibility. In that case 21 would need to remain in use regardless of SFC wind unless the aircraft could accept 03. This was just an example of an outside factor that dictates runway in use that isn't SFC wind, spot winds and other met and operational situations can take priority.

[Robbie Garrett]

Is that the only reason he gave you 09R?

Just seems a strange reason that's all...

 

Regards,

A...

 

 

Hi mate,

 

Would not see it as strange now as the other day. Heathrow was using 09R/09L is the early morning as Landing Runway. Insight to Dual OPS maybe? For E.g BAW28, Est 09L then AAL104 Est 09R 3 miles behind the BA 777. Then a futher 3 or 2 behind SHT2P is est 09L behind the American T7 then a further 2 behind that Shuttle flight is Qantas 18 est 09R.

 

I have never seen it before but that's what was happening.

 

 

 

Also on a note: Once again 09's is in use even though some pilots decided to depart 27R becuase the winds are Wind: 050 True, 4 Kts

Vis: 9999 Meters, 10 SM

Clouds: None

Precip: None

Temp: 20C Dew: 11C

Pressure: 1013 mb, 29.92 inches

 

But the TAF shows: EGLL 291051Z 291818 09010KT 9999 SCT040 TEMPO 1809 9000 BECMG 2124 36005KT PROB30 TEMPO 0408 4500 BR BKN010

 

09's will be in use all week no matter what unless the winds dramatically change.

 

If i was a software developer i would create a little tool were i can through my PC give the Real world Runway in use. Well i am like Under the 27R ILS and have a scanner and would be happy to provide just a little Information each day telling the Runways in use. Either 09R Departure and 09L Arrivals or 27s are in use with the metar and TAF at the bottom of it.

 

I could draw up what it could look like in Photoshop and if someone would be happy to create it and an app were i can log in and Update it every 3-6 hours Or so.

 

 

The data from me will be that of the Real world as i can pick up APP, TWR, GND, and Heathrow ATIS L:)

 

Any takers?

 

This should solve the Runway ISSUES at Heathrow.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Robbie

[Michael Benson]

Hello Robbie,

 

As I alluded to in my first post, in your example they will of been TEAMing.

 

Secondly an application based on the real world runway in use, in my opinion, is pointless. The VATSIM weather can sometimes lag several hours, if not days, behind the real world weather. Runway in use is also affected by work in progress, lighting faults, navaids servicibility, traffic, etc - some or none of which we model on VATSIM.

 

Following the few simple rules that we have are more than adequate, in my opinion.

[Robert Piper 1001024]

Robbie, I don't no if you noticed yesterday evening they were using 27L/R simaltainiously(sp?). I was sure of the winds, but they were pretty hefty at about 4000ft with 30knots being reported, there were large delays in the stacks, possibly why they chose to switch to 27's. They are as i speak only using 09L, however i have like you heard them use 09R also, however i believe they can only have a certain amount of aircraft for 09R every so often.

 

As to runway deciders another factor is of course the TAF, if at 0700 local, the wind is 300@4, 27s are prefered, but if the TAF says that at 1200local the wind will be 010@10 then they will use 09's as it is a task to change runwys during the day.

[Robbie Garrett]

Hello Robbie,

 

As I alluded to in my first post, in your example they will of been TEAMing.

 

Secondly an application based on the real world runway in use, in my opinion, is pointless. The VATSIM weather can sometimes lag several hours, if not days, behind the real world weather. Runway in use is also affected by work in progress, lighting faults, navaids serviceability, traffic, etc - some or none of which we model on VATSIM.

 

Following the few simple rules that we have are more than adequate, in my opinion.

 

Hello Michael,

 

Long time no see & Speak.

 

What is TEAMing?

 

And application i would have thought would have been quite cool and helpful. However you mention Maintanence work that is all done in the night time (Thankfully not during the day otherwise it's BBC new's grabbing the headlines)

 

I understand that VATSIM won't follow Runway Maintanence and closures. But did VATSIM.net follow the NOTAM after the Crash of BAW038?

 

The application would include various stuff but i need someone to help create it as i am not a programmer or have no experience.

 

 

Robbie, I don't no if you noticed yesterday evening they were using 27L/R simaltainiously(sp?). I was sure of the winds, but they were pretty hefty at about 4000ft with 30knots being reported, there were large delays in the stacks, possibly why they chose to switch to 27's. They are as i speak only using 09L, however i have like you heard them use 09R also, however i believe they can only have a certain amount of aircraft for 09R every so often.

 

As to runway deciders another factor is of course the TAF, if at 0700 local, the wind is 300@4, 27s are prefered, but if the TAF says that at 1200local the wind will be 010@10 then they will use 09's as it is a task to change runwys during the day.

 

Hello Robert,

 

I was spotting at LHR and a plane was blocking 09L due to a burst tyre. I did notice after i come home they switched to 27s

 

In the application i don't know how but if i can just turn my PC on anyway and have the app saved on my PC and i can just Import the Runway In use like so after looking at the TAF and Current Metar.

 

Robbie

[Bill Casey]

And application i would have thought would have been quite cool and helpful.

 

Such an application, based upon information gained by using a scanner, is illegal in the UK. Listening in to ATC using a scanner is illegal and actually using/broadcasting any such information is doubley-illegal. If one is using a scanner then don't shout about it. I fully expect the usual debate about scanner usage now but rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured that it IS illegal and you CAN be prosecuted for doing it in Britain. The authorities will normally turn a blind eye to someone who is being unobtrusive whilst listening but that is no defence if they decided to take action.

[Robbie Garrett]

And application i would have thought would have been quite cool and helpful.

 

Such an application, based upon information gained by using a scanner, is illegal in the UK. Listening in to ATC using a scanner is illegal and actually using/broadcasting any such information is doubley-illegal. If one is using a scanner then don't shout about it. I fully expect the usual debate about scanner usage now but rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured that it IS illegal and you CAN be prosecuted for doing it in Britain. The authorities will normally turn a blind eye to someone who is being unobtrusive whilst listening but that is no defence if they decided to take action.

 

I won't be using a scanner.

 

I won't be broadcasting it either.

 

I will simply look out my window and use Metar from: http://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/united-kingdom-ireland.php?icao=EGLL

 

Using Metars from the net and the Publicized Runway Alternation is not illegal i would have thought.

 

And put that Information on the Internet via an application.

 

That is not illegal.

[Michael Benson]

Hello Robbie,

 

TEAMing is Tactical Enhanced Arrival Mode - when holding reaches high enough levels they will land on both runways in order to clear the backlog as soon as possible. There are bits and bobs on the internet about it if you do some searching.

 

Secondly I was under the same illusion as Bill that you would be determining the runway in use by listening into the scanner from your post:

 

Well i am like Under the 27R ILS and have a scanner and would be happy to provide just a little Information each day telling the Runways in use.

 

VATSIM-UK operate a system which allows controllers to mimic real world happenings, such as NOTAMS, WIP, etc - however they don't have to, nor can they force a pilot/other controller to undertake them either. The Uk did close runway 27L for arrivals after the incident involving the BA Triple.

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

Opher.

 

I work as a TWR controller, and this differences between winds on final approach say at 1000' and 2000' AGL and surface wind are certainly far from being a myth, they do happen. And we do change the runway in use due to wind on final approach, whatever you want to think of it. How do we know the wind on final - well, we can always ask the crew, most probably they will inform us themselves if the tailwind on final is significant.

 

And to clarify the issue with climb performance - climb gradient is dependant on your GS and VS. While its true that wind will not affect your VS (that's what you understand as a climb performance) - it will affect your GS, therefore climb gradient.