Bill Casey Posted June 16, 2008 at 01:12 PM Posted June 16, 2008 at 01:12 PM Michael The new "feature" that withdraws support for AIRACs after a very short period of time seems a little draconian to me. I was using 0804, hardly an old AIRAC, because it has no bugs or annoyances that affect my aircraft or regular routes and this morning it seems vRoute has deemed it too old to use and has rolled me back to 0608. This effectively disables vRoute unless I spend money (plus I now have the annoyance of collecting bug-free SIDS/STARS for my LDS 767 which are not provided by Navigraph). As a result of the SID/STAR issue I cycle AIRACs periodically if there is something crucial affecting my normal regions of flight rather than every month. Your system is now forcing me to spend money more often. Suffice to say I am less than impressed. What's the story behind this? Bill Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michal Rok Posted June 16, 2008 at 05:22 PM Posted June 16, 2008 at 05:22 PM There are two basic reasons. One is that this is a license condition from Navigraph which I cannot dispute - they are the conditions for having the data available to You. The other is that my database has approx. 1GB of data per cycle and I could no longer keep up with the idea that I keep 6 or 12 months of data backwards. By the way: if you load up your Navigraph account with the smallest possible number of credits, it makes no sense to buy just one cycle, because your credits will expire before you make any use of them. Actually, buying every second cycle sounds rational (unless you decide to buy other Navigraph's products) and gives you the best value for your money. Michal vroute.net founder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Casey Posted June 16, 2008 at 08:40 PM Author Posted June 16, 2008 at 08:40 PM One is that this is a license condition from Navigraph which I cannot dispute - they are the conditions for having the data available to You. The other is that my database has approx. 1GB of data per cycle and I could no longer keep up with the idea that I keep 6 or 12 months of data backwards. The first reason seems rather strange. Have they suddenly changed their licence rules without telling anyone? This only just happened so something must have changed. Forgive me for thinking that I smell a rat because the effect of this change is that the "free" version of vRoute is effectively no longer free at all, it is now payware by stealth since it is useless unless we spend money elsewhere. Something just doesn't ring true with that since it does certainly mean that the routes donated by Vatsim users are not available "free" anymore. The second reason is a little more understandable but I'm not talking about 6-12 months of data. 0804 was superceded only 6 weeks ago and hence my comment abouit a draconian time limit which creates the "payware by stealth" thought. I'm sorry but there is something about this that is just not sounding quite right. Bill Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michal Rok Posted June 16, 2008 at 09:43 PM Posted June 16, 2008 at 09:43 PM Bill, when i say "license conditions" i'm referring to conditions that website operators (such as vroute) must observe to get licensed navigational data from Navigraph. The time limit is specifically that I do not keep more than three cycles ("cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic" 0608, current, previous) at one time in the database, except a week on the boundary of two cycles to ease the transition period for users. Personally I wish it was 2006 again and we had all data again available for free for everyone, but in absence of such a source I'm simply picking the best solution to deliver quality navigation services to vroute users. If you know someone who has access to up-to-date navigational information and can give it to me for free or for a reasonable price, without license restrictions - let me know Michal PS. some other site selected the option to stick to cycle 0711 for their flight plans, but remain free for everyone. Which of the two approaches would you personally find more convincing, especially in the long term? vroute.net founder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ronhovde 1001599 Posted June 26, 2008 at 06:57 AM Posted June 26, 2008 at 06:57 AM (edited) @Michal Rok 814600 As im sure you understand, you dont need the Airac system at all, (or could be limited anyways) you can simply offer routes sent to you by the users, if thay are valid by for example CFMU thay are useble, so if you did this you would offered the very same servise, WITHOUT saying that the routes I and We give to you for free, shall now cost money to be accesed by the Vatsim Users. Because it will cost money for them to acces them, as thay need the latest Airac Cykle, and when thay buy it and download a code from Navigraph, im sure you dont get a singel Doller for it ^^ The Fact is, I have made many routes for you and your database, who you now effectivly are selling to the Vatsim users, by demanding thay have the latest Airac from Navigraph to acces them. With all do respect sir, I think that it is a very sad way of exploiting our Hobby to your personal banefit. Im actualy considering to make a Website about You and your Vroute. Now on the same tokan, its also a Fact that you have Costs offering this servise, but there is other ways you can finanse this servise, you do not need to reduse "The quallety of MY and OURS experience" by demanding the Airac's to be fully up to date. I know, that you know that im right. -> But since this is a public forum, and since you need to defend your business idea and all of that... im expecting from you (before you lock this topic) a facenating replay filled with alot of tecnical xxx about laws and agreemants, who im sure (as I always thrust somone with financial intrests) are exactly 100% true and correct as you will put it... Aigan let me say, the product you have made has potential, but i would be much more happy if you would let me pay you for the product as genuin paywere... but no wait.. you want me to pay you over and over and over aigan as i will need to upgrade my airac... aha sorry i forgot about that ... Edited June 27, 2008 at 08:47 AM by Guest I'm From PARIS, FRANCE ... were are you from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof Szerszen 861225 Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:11 AM Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:11 AM @Michal Rok 814600 As im sure you understand, you dont need the Airac system at all As I'm sure You don't understand what you're talking about... Realistic ultra-intolerant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnathon Neilsen 955672 Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:27 AM Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:27 AM Whoa Richard I think you'd better read the other posts again.... That was a tad bit harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ronhovde 1001599 Posted June 27, 2008 at 08:26 AM Posted June 27, 2008 at 08:26 AM But seriusly, why need 1 new Airac every month? So lets say the airac is updated once pr 4 month, im sure it will be good enugth. I do not see why we should have to make this constant payments. Regarding Server Space, I cant imagine it being a issue to have 4 - 6 months of Airacs on file. Maby its me who dont get it, but i anyways think it should been 'a' payment, instead of every month. And i have no problem with paying a larger fee for a servise like that. Btw. have you looked into how Vatspay ect solve this very same problem? I'm From PARIS, FRANCE ... were are you from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojciech S. Bursiak 818013 Posted June 27, 2008 at 08:48 AM Posted June 27, 2008 at 08:48 AM Maby I just dont get it Totally. If you want to submit / view a route valid in airac 0806, you need to have an access code from navigraph 0806 cycle. If you want to submit / view a 0712 route, you need to have an access code for 0712 cycle. If you don't buy navigraph cycles, you can still submit / browse through 0608 routes, but you can not submit nor view any newer routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ronhovde 1001599 Posted June 27, 2008 at 02:49 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 02:49 PM Thats the point, cant submit nor wiew any newer routes. I'm From PARIS, FRANCE ... were are you from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojciech S. Bursiak 818013 Posted June 27, 2008 at 04:20 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 04:20 PM Thats the point, cant submit nor wiew any newer routes. Your own words with a little paraphrasis will be the best response to that: with all due respect sir, I think that would be a very sad way of exploiting somebody's financial expense to your personal benefit. You are not entitled to access up-to-date routes submitted by community members who payed for the ARIAC cycle unless you pay as well. Simple, logical, obvious, straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Elchitz 810151 Posted June 27, 2008 at 06:35 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 06:35 PM PS. some other site selected the option to stick to cycle 0711 for their flight plans, but remain free for everyone. Which of the two approaches would you personally find more convincing, especially in the long term? The decision by SimRoutes to stick with free navigational data was based on two factors: 1) We didn't want to force people to purchase AIRAC navigational data from Navigraph (or anyone else) in order to use the application. 2) We felt that by implementing the solution proposed by Navigraph we would be forced to allocate resources to make the required changes resulting in a cost for us while at the same time enhancing the value of their product. If we were already, or planned on being a commercial product at the time, then there might have been more value in their solution, providing they were willing to compensate us in some way for adding to their revenue stream and strengthening their position in the market. I did not have any problems making that decision back in November 2007 and still don't regret it today. Respectfully, Ian Elchitz CYYC SimRoutes.com Ian Elchitz Just a guy without any fancy titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michal Rok Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:30 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:30 PM (edited) Ian, I fully respect your decision and I understand the reasons you gave. I recall however that back in 0608 times I decided to stick with the latest free, while everyone around moved forward and offered newer, payware data. People often complained that vroute does not offer any newer data. I invested significant effort into having multiple data sets, so that you actually pick if you prefer 0608 or some other cycle when you run vroute. In the long term, the users will decide which approach do they prefer. BTW vroute takes every new route submitted for any particular cycle and tries to make it available in other cycles, as long as it is valid there. So if you submitted a route in cycle 0805 and it was valid for 0608 as well (used navaids and airways that also existed in August 2006), and later decided to stop buying new cycles, you can find your route in vroute under the default free cycle 0608. Michal ps. Richard - I tried to read and understand your first post but I simply don't get it. Edited June 27, 2008 at 07:35 PM by Guest vroute.net founder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michal Rok Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:35 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 07:35 PM Thats the point, cant submit nor wiew any newer routes. That's the point. If you did not buy the navdata for the new cycle, you don't have the access code, what is the point of getting the routes for a new cycle? You won't be able to fly them anyway, because your GPS won't understand the waypoints. Michal vroute.net founder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ronhovde 1001599 Posted June 27, 2008 at 09:30 PM Posted June 27, 2008 at 09:30 PM PS. some other site selected the option to stick to cycle 0711 for their flight plans, but remain free for everyone. Which of the two approaches would you personally find more convincing, especially in the long term? The decision by SimRoutes to stick with free navigational data was based on two factors: 1) We didn't want to force people to purchase AIRAC navigational data from Navigraph (or anyone else) in order to use the application. 2) We felt that by implementing the solution proposed by Navigraph we would be forced to allocate resources to make the required changes resulting in a cost for us while at the same time enhancing the value of their product. If we were already, or planned on being a commercial product at the time, then there might have been more value in their solution, providing they were willing to compensate us in some way for adding to their revenue stream and strengthening their position in the market. I did not have any problems making that decision back in November 2007 and still don't regret it today. Respectfully, Ian Elchitz CYYC SimRoutes.com This is great, SimRoutes will be my new tool. I do update my own Airac every 3 month or so, but i dont like the way Vroute almost force one to do so to be up to date. I think i like this SimRoutes.com better. Anyway, thanks for your replays, and good bye. I'm From PARIS, FRANCE ... were are you from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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